Tisha B'Av

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Koran podcast. As we prepare for Tisha Bav, we need little reminding of how fragile and fraught our existence as jews can be, even here in Israel. There have been daily reminders since Simchat Torah of the harsh realities of being a jew, whether in Eirik Yisrael or the diaspora. We felt it most appropriate this year, therefore, to reshare two of our most powerful conversations from the last season. The conversations we had with the Gedalia family, whose son and brother Yosef felt defending the people of Israel on October 7, and with Rachel and John Goldberg, Poland, whose son Hirsch is still, after more than 300 days, being held as a hostage by Hamas. We hope that by the time you listen to this, our evel, our mourning, has been turned to Simcha, to joy. But until then, we wish you and all of our listeners a meaningful tish above. May Moshiach redeem all of Israel, and may we celebrate together soon in the bet Hamikdash. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Welcome to the Quorim podcast. And today we are joined by the Gedalia family here in our offices in Jerusalem, David and Charlie and Asha. And we're gonna be hearing a little bit about the family and also about their son Yosef. So we'll go straight into it. David, why don't you introduce yourself, your sons who are here with you today, and tell us a bit about the Gedalia family. [00:01:27] Speaker C: That's a hard one. Okay. I grew up in a blend of America and Israel. I spent my early, early childhood in Jerusalem until about age four, and then I was in the states for seven years, four in Holyoke, three in Los Angeles, and then back to Israel high School, Khorv, and then back to America Ishb University, and then back to Israel for Karen Bhavyavna, and then back to America, Yeshua University. Then I came back, I did a little bit of Hebrew and went to Barilan, did my masters in Barilan, met my wife in Barilan. We got married. We lived straight away. We lived in Jerusalem. We lived five years in Jerusalem, and then when we had three children, moved to Beit Hamish. We've been in Beit Hamish since Leonine. I know how we have seven children. Yosef was killed on October 7, and we can talk more about that day. I can tell you a lot about the family. Very proud of my family. They're amazing people, all of them. So the eldest, Shira, she's her master's in economics and works for Malag Mossad, la Haskalagvoir. So try and analyze educational trends. Sure. He'll talk about himself. I'll let you introduce yourself. He's here. Yelly. Ellie not here. She can't represent herself, so we'll represent her. Nutritionalist. She's working in chariathetic now. Charlie will introduce himself, Yosef will introduce at length. I think we'll get around to that. And then Esther and Elisheva, the two youngest two are. So Esther is doing shoot with me in Jerusalem now with a program called Darkenu, where she's working with down syndrome children. And Eli Sheves, 13, working her way through high school very slowly. [00:03:21] Speaker B: Okay, I guess we'll get Asher now. Age order. [00:03:23] Speaker D: Yeah. So, hey, I'm Asher. I'm 30. I studied in high school in orotiudaynefrat. I went afterwards to Ely, to the machina. I was there for a year and a few months. Drafted to the army to four year service. After that, did some gym trainer course, went straight to university. After that, completed my first degree, started working in high tech, and now I'm in the middle of my second degree, my masters. [00:03:57] Speaker E: I went to Abbatista and be Temce for high school. After that, I went to yeshivatis de Oratzion by Rabb Drukman, and I went to the army and the saqavi. I actually went into army with yeshiva Tekotel, which was like ten guys who were Americans and almost all of them already made aliyah and now are in service with me and miloum. Right now I'm learning my first degree in physics, and I'm also doing some dai chi. [00:04:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I was thinking about the question again, because where you are in khorin and surrounded by books. So I was thinking I should ask my boys this question, but I'll ask myself first and I'll ask the boys a question. Which rabbinic figures or which Torah educations influenced me the most over my career? So a bit of everything, right? So Khorv, when I went to Harvey, it was not so much a datilumi school as much as a Haredi school back then, I'd say they definitely influenced me in that we learned Kumar Rashi Tosvot, just blood after blood after blood. I remember in 9th grade, we had tests on 40, just boom. And you expected to know all the rashid and tosfos. So that influenced me in one direction. The yeshiva university experience was broad. I was in Rabban Shapigu shir, and then Rabban soloveitchiksh here. And I think Hadratpa, name of Ahim Saraveitchik, influenced me. The shitatlimud itself, how they went around the brisk learning. So I had grown up in that world. My father was atomic raviolisa Saraveitchik, and so I had, like, felt some of that before a branch. Pigo is more in the realm of Soloveitchik's world, in just pure Gemara learning, like the way you analyze it. But Ravarin Soloveitchik did something which I haven't seen other people do, which he just read every single word. So he did not skip anything. He'd read all the Gemara and all the rashi and just go through it one line at a time. And if he was short on time, he'd just read fast. And that was one of his shitots. I think Dhawar is more influenced later on by a number of people. So I went to Hebe University after I got married, and I was studying NOAA computation. And then I met David Hansel. David Hansel is the grandson of Emmanuel Avinas. He introduced me to what he called the french methodology, which was more abstraction, of course, but also more about contextual learning and learning Gemara as it flows. He also introduced me to what he called the ashlag circle. So I started to understand a little bit of, of Yehuda Lebashlag's Torah in that world, and that kind of segued into a different type of learning with vaxuriol viner around Bhmi Joshua avah. And there I started to learn how to listen to myself more. So I would say I definitely shifted from, in general, from 9th grade on, I did this shift from just, there is text outside of me to then there's something in the text that can be analyzed to then I can see how it reflects inside me. I'd be happy to hear your voice, who are your influential. [00:07:17] Speaker D: Yeah, so definitely, I would say Alaveli Sadan in one way, or in the main way, where it's not as much into the, I guess, ways of learning or how to analyze the Gemaras, or what are you gonna do? Show name. But more, I guess, on a higher level of what is our tafkid, what is our purpose, how do we connect to the mitzvot through. Through the time and through where am Yisrael is situated. So I would definitely say that's on one hand and on the halachic perspective, I definitely like Rabbi Yosef and, and his shitta and his way of doing Allah. So that's, for me, the two kind of sides of things. [00:08:11] Speaker E: The first thing that came to mind, of course, is my father influenced me in the Gemara side learning. He'll probably share about it later, but he has a different way than what I was thrown in Yeshiva to learn Gemara. I think again, it was more look into the text, listen to the text, hear what it has to tell you, and let's just read it and analyze it. That's in the Gemara side, I think in the Tawati. Let's again, it's all together. But also Oetzion is very Rav Dukman. It's all about Amisla and El Tisle and looking at things in a wider perspective with more, I guess, depth and also for a longer period of time and I being connected to the arm. [00:09:01] Speaker A: This is not the first time we've had family members as guests or friends as guests in one episode of the podcast. And I think as we build up to asking our fundamental question of the Torah. Al Raghalachat, can you tell us a bit about, you mentioned your father as an influence. He definitely scores some points with that, I'm sure. But could you talk to us a bit about what was daily life like in the Gedalia household growing up? And as we begin to talk about Yosef more, as his brother, as brothers, as his father, what was life like growing up? Clearly Torah, and just even thinking broadly about Torah and how he experienced Judaism obviously comes across as something very central. So what was that like growing up? [00:09:59] Speaker D: I can say from my perspective practically more speaking, there's, on the Toa side, it's experiencing it in the house and around parents that are very involved in learning and in the shirs and all that stuff while you're in high school or in Machina, it's more just living in that environment. It's the Shabbos table, of course, where things are always being spoken. And D'Ivoire Torah are the number one priority, and 90% of the meal is probably spent around that. Other than that, growing up in the Gedalia house involves a lot in sports and health. That's something that we like to do a lot, too. And yeah, a lot of fun, a lot of family time, cousin time. We're very like family oriented kind of people. We're not as much with at least me and Charlie, we used to call yourself Mister popular because he somehow found his friends and he'd go places with them. But me and Charlie, we kind of always just around each other and Yosef and play basketball with each other, go Frisbee, do this tournament, that kind of everything together, not much with other friends. So, yeah, that was. That, I think, outlines mainly what it's like to grow up in the Gedalia house. For me. [00:11:20] Speaker E: Yeah, I agree kind of with Asher. I'm just going to point out that Yasa became Mister Poplar after me and Asher got married. So we didn't really leave him any choice. So before that, it was three of us all the time together, everything together. And we really grew up in our own. Our own, I guess you could say, environment, because we didn't feel the need for so much connection with outside, with friends. But also we had, like, everything we needed in our own circle. [00:11:45] Speaker C: Yeah. I try and draw a picture of what a Friday looks like. A Friday in the Gedalia household. So depending on the exact configuration. But there's an element of kitchen activity, we'll call it, which is very, very dramatic. But the kitchen is open. It's right in the middle of the house. So when you're in the kitchen, you're part of most of the activities. And then there's the element of the exercise. So we have a small little gym outside which gets used on Friday by the entire family. Or when they were younger, for certain. And then there's this moment, which is about five minutes to Mircha, when the boys are out in the gym and they're doing their exercises and they're all sweaty. And I say, I'm going to show. And they're all pretty good at it. But Yosef was better at this one. By the time I got to show, Yosef had showered and he was right next to me. I never really understood how he did it. And every now and then, double. Did you use shampoo? And. No. Why would be the answer? [00:12:58] Speaker B: So, obviously you mentioned him. Now, tell us a bit of introduce yourself to us a bit about his childhood and how he fits into this picture that you've painted for us. [00:13:10] Speaker C: Well, Yosef is one of his characteristics that we're all familiar with, with his smile. As a little boy, when he was in school, he would just smile at the teacher. That was what he did. The teacher would ask a question, he would smile. And if he didn't know the answer, he'd just smile more. And the teacher would get upset and say, why are you smiling at me? And he'd just smile more. And that's what he knew how to do. He just knew how to smile. It was uncharacteristic and endeared him on everyone because how can you not be attentive to a smiling boy? A little thing he did, which. That little thing. And I still of course, don't understand. To this day is before he was three, he would just look at a sefatura. So he would walk up, and they did. He'd walk up to me, stand right in the middle, and I'd always be worried that someone would bump into him. He's a little boy, and I'd just stare at the sefatara. And we never knew why. We still don't know why. But for his third birthday, when we did a halacha, we built him a little of an kodesh, and that was his birthday gift. And he just loved looking at this ephemera. It was a thing. His name's full name is Joseph Malachi, and it was an element of energetic beauty, also, just physically, but also something about him when he grew up and went to school. I mean, I never saw him do homework, but I know he did well, because he graduated. He did stop playing basketball one semester. I don't know if you know this more than me. I didn't even notice because he was so busy doing other things. But he wanted to study more. So he did take his studies seriously at some point, but it never occurred to me. So that got him through high school. Then he joined the army, he went to Machina. We can talk more about that. But the quick overview is he kept his way of living, which included going to bed early. One of the Gedalia household elements, at least for the boys, is the boys go to bed early, which precludes certain social activities, which is fine for some of us. So, as an anecdote, Joseph in machine, his roommates weren't going to sleep early enough for him, so he just took his mattress and he brought it into a classroom that was empty. And he slept in the classroom because he didn't. He didn't want to disturb them and he needed to sleep. So that's what he did. And that carried into the army, too. You know, he just did everything binoam. Everything was done in a way that people could. You could never say no to Yosef because he never. He never created a situation which you could say no. He would do ridiculous things. And it was still. Of course. Of course, yes. [00:16:13] Speaker D: Yeah. So for me, obviously, slightly different perspective, but same truth. So, being his older brother, I'm seven years older than him. Me and Charlie used to fight more because that's kind of the age gap that you fight, or four years away. He used to try to follow me places. And then I tell him, like, why you follow him? He said, no, I'm going to play with this person, that person, he had all his excuses. He also, it's already seven years, so it's not as much the fighting gap. And I don't remember that much from, from the baby years, of course, but definitely already from age eight, nine, we have videos of it. That's when I started working out because I kind of got into that whole thing and I carried Yosef with me from the beginning. So at the beginning I couldn't do one pull up. So as I'm like trying to learn, he's also doing his first pull ups. And he was able actually from the beginning, but he's nine years old at that point doing it. And I'm 16. So a few years later, I'm already going to Machina and then I'm already driving to the army. And he's kind of following through the whole thing and with this training and keeping up with it. And I went to Eli, he came later on to go to Ely also. So kind of having the same rabbis, a lot of the same mindset in that sense, too, when it comes to serving for the country. And how do you put that together with learning and going to non religious, half religious units, together with staying completely religious and even more getting uplifted by the army and becoming more religious in the army. The truth is both of us also ended up doing Kebah. He signed, he was three and a half years in the army at the Simchatoa. So really going all the way. I don't think he even had much of a debate if to sign on the extra year it was part of. He had the debate. Remember he came to me before. So how it goes into Divan where he served. You finish your training and then they send a few people to like the special pal ga. It's like the special subunit and they have to sign on an extra year usually because he was going to specialize in the drones. So he had to make that decision. I remember we debated about it a little bit. I remember I thought it was a good idea for him to do that. And he, I feel like also thought it was a good idea and that's what he did. So that's like, on that aspect of, you know, just the growing up and the kind of, at the end, we ended up doing a lot of the same kind of things. Yeah, more than that. We played in the same basketball team. We played together on Friday right before Singh Hattoa. We joined like a few months before. We said, yeah, let's join the basketball team. Okay, let's do it. And we both joined. He was in the army. I was like, whatever doing. We both came to be chamish, to play in the games there. We played Frisbee together for years, like, ever since I was probably 20 and a bit. And he got. He was very good. We started by playing. I had actually started on Shabbat afternoons or right after show before lunch usually. That was like the main session. We'd go up to the street and we just throw. We got pretty good at it. And some friend told us to go to Kifatram, and we were like, whatever, we don't need that. And then we tried it out and it was amazing because it's like a flat, open grass field and you can just like, that was heaven for us. There was nothing better than Friday morning at Kivatram playing ultimate Frisbee. And we did that for years. Years. Like, I remember looking forward for Friday, just for that. And we'd come 08:00 a.m. and until now, until a few months ago, I'd always text him, are you going to Frisbee? If not, I felt like there was no reason to really go. We had our own kind of moves. We called it the bet Shemesh play, the two play move, where basically I throw it to him, I run the whole way, and then he just throws it to me long, and then it works usually, and when it doesn't, everyone gets Madden. We did tournaments together, so really kind of everything we spoke about, you know, I kind of had this startup I'm working on, so he wanted to join, and that's on the business aspect and kind of just mixed everything in life. There wasn't really a line between where the family and where the sports and where the activities and where the friendship and where the business goes. It's just all one big picture. [00:20:31] Speaker C: Yeah. You reminded me of a Giddai activity, which is Aliyah Baragil, which is about once or twice a year in the chagim. We walk from our house to the kotel, which in the beginning we did over two days, and then it took one day, and we did it different ways. We walked, we ran, we bike rode. We did it with rocks, with little children. But it's a facet of mixing everything at the same time. It's a physical activity, it's a spiritual activity. It has tara on the way. We walked with alulavimous. It's a national activity. It had all those facets. And Yosef started it as a little boy, and we carried him a bit. I don't know if you remember that. I remember we had to carry Yosef because it was hard for him. And then I remember towards the end, he was carrying Ali Shev at some point on his shoulders. It's a bit of a walk. It's like 40 km hike uphill. That was a. That's a good kidalya tradition there. [00:21:29] Speaker E: Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna try to add in some more picture to this. So bad. Daliya again. Yasf, I remember, would always bring the speaker blast music the whole time, make it a lot more fun. He was always so excited to do it. Let's do it. And he always tried to get other people to join us. It's like a day before he would send out tons of WhatsApps. Who's coming? Who's coming? We're going, we're going. Come, come. He's really hyped about it. And a few stories that I remember, it's like a chavey. I'm trying to do stories. So, yes, I had his way to him of. He didn't have masachim filters. Filters, but not in a bad way with people he didn't see. Different types of people he didn't see, oh, maybe this is something weird. Maybe I shouldn't do this. Like, two stories that come up to me. One is he went to the supermarket and bought crystal. And crystal remembers, in his or nose is not the most high end drink. So just selling it like that, it's not so good, but it's pretty cheap. So what he did is he went to the freezer, he froze it, and then he sold as ice pops. So now he has crystal ice pops, and there he goes. And people like it. [00:22:41] Speaker C: How old would he. [00:22:42] Speaker E: This is young, this is younger. I don't remember. Remember in high school, he might have got this from Ashok. I remember Asha did something like that. [00:22:48] Speaker D: I also sold ice pops in 7th grade. [00:22:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:50] Speaker E: So that could have been for him. But in high school, he came up with another idea to sell toasting. So he would go buy, like, white bread, buy cheese. He would have maybe a fridge, a toaster in high school, and he would just sell his toasting cheese. He made tons of money. And you always think, okay, how can I get a bit more here? Get a bit more there? So another project we did together, he always convinced me to do all these things with him. So one of the things was collecting bottles. So for some reason, he convinced me we were going to collect bottles, and we collected, collected, and once in two months, we would give it in, and we bought things together. So it was chargeable batteries or keyboard to play games together, whatever it was. Since I had to side with him always to figure out, oh, a bit more here, a bit more there. Another fun story, um, is how can't say no to the SM. So I would come home from school and it was like a month of this. I remember he would sit by the computer and start watching drone videos. This was. Must have been. This was before ten years. Like when the drones just came out, DJI just started. No one really knew about it. Um, and like, for a month in a row, I would come home from school and he would show me these drone videos and hype me up about it. And after a month, okay, Charlie, you have to buy. You have to buy it now. We're two young kids, we don't have so much money, and it costs a nice amount, but somehow he manages to give us care of buying this drone. So we flew to America. We bought on Amazon. We got this nice drone and we flew it so many. So another story just comes up. We were in America and we were playing around with our drone. We're flying it around, and it was at a time, I guess, maybe a bit of terrorism. So it was problematic flying the drone over the bridge, but, okay, yes, it was to land. He goes, we go. He doesn't really like it. Doesn't bother him too much. We start flying the drone, and then a policeman comes up to us, okay, no, you can't fly the drone. Bring it down. Okay, we bring it down. Then I'm like telling, yes, yes, let's go back, let's go back. And he was just like, smiling there, waiting, waiting. Nah, nah, it's fine, it's fine. Nah, nah, it's fine. Again, he digs the drum, flies it up. And again, the policeman, I think, saw. And I'm already like, oh, my gosh, I'm in America. It's not my country. I don't know. And I think at that end, we're like, okay, we're going. And this policeman, like, followed us back home. But with that suggestive, it's like, not just like, way with things, he different way of doing things. So those are some fun stories. Besides that, with me and him, it was very much. I had a project, so he would help me with his project, with my project, if it was the garden. I remember one year when Sukkot, we built a wogot together, I don't know, plant vegetables and the thing. Planters, planters. So we built that together and he helped me with our BlackBerry and he helped me with another project, and all these projects, he was always there to help me with. We do a lot of things together. I think this is also the time Asher Reddy was in Yeshiva and in Eli in the army. So then me and Yosef were home, so we were more at all these projects together. [00:25:47] Speaker A: David, just as a father, it must be raising a family like this where the boys get on so well and, you know, getting up to mischief, but only in good ways, I hope. These things like, you know, the Ali Ala regal, the Godali al Raga, the hike, where does that come from? What's, like, the impetus for that? What's the inspiration behind? Or is it just that you're such an active family and, you know, saying that, you know, the boys were enough for each other, that so much so that, like, yourself, having friends made him mister popular, whereas, you know, you guys hang out together if something just occurs naturally? Or was this, like, a real decision by yourself and your wife as parents? [00:26:35] Speaker C: Why, it's a hard one. I think there's an element of discovery that we have in the house. So be it nutritional discovery to always make something different on shabbos, but it has to be healthy, probably, unless it's not. I mean, that tradition continues. Charlie has what we call Charlie cookies and Charlie Granola, which are phenomenal. But there's an element of discovery. There's an element of living the Torah. Like, one version of that is at the Shabbos table when the boys ask a question, or the girls, but a halacha question. So are we allowed to do the following? So we'll open up a gemara. I try not to open up a shokonaro, if I can avoid it. We'll try and open up a gemara and see what the gemara says. You know, live it, see if we can make sense out of that. And I think Ali Abba regal, like you said one, is, it's just natural for us to go out on a hike that's, like, fun, and physical activity is fun. But also, there was this element of, we're here in Eris Yisrael, we're here in Yemegula, and we need to prepare. We're going to do Aliyadh, reggaeton, bin korbanaut, which way are we going to walk? And from our house, there are four or five different ways. Let's map them out and try them. So we've tried a whole bunch of different ways, because you have to know which way to walk. And then there was a debate. We once passed the Bedouin camp meant should we buy a sheep and carry it and see if it makes it easier or harder? We didn't want to get arrested at the top. There were like questions like that. But, but it was a practical thing. It's like, okay, you know, how, how are we going to do this when the time comes? And then there are the fun halakha questions that come up like, why don't we do actually, um, bikurim today? Like Bhikurim, you start by, by tying the gemmi on the first fruit as they appear. Maybe by the time the will be built by Shavuot. So we should mark out our trees. We have a pomegranate tree. We should quickly, you know, put a little rubber band on it. So it turned out it's a question people ask, do you have to actually have the Beit Hamidash to have the qurayim in the beginning? Or you can do it first. You can first. So I think Aliyah Baregar was part of that too, was a mixture of just living. [00:28:53] Speaker B: And you mentioned before Josef chose to go to Machina, possibly his own choice or just following in Ash's footsteps or maybe both. Tell us a little bit about that, his experience there, why he chose to go there. How was that for him? [00:29:11] Speaker C: Do you have any idea? I have no idea. [00:29:16] Speaker D: I think the mindset of going to elite special forces, giving your, giving you all for when it comes to training. And, you know, before that, we did it in workouts and we were fully motivated. We went to Brooklyn together. We trained over there with the best street workout people in the world. Like, I was very into street workout. And one time I watched them on YouTube and it's actually what got me into it. I was trying to learn how to do a pull up and then I came up to one of their videos on YouTube and I was like, hey, that's what I want to be. And then I just worked and worked and worked. And then one time we were in America and I told my dad, like, I really want to meet these guys. So we found one of the videos was in Tompkins Square park. So my dad brought us there and I was like 16 and Charlie was there and Yosef was there. And we're all there. And it's like the scene is not the most classic scene. [00:30:07] Speaker C: Yes. [00:30:07] Speaker D: The jewish family in New York. [00:30:10] Speaker C: No, no, it was. Yes. Yeah, we were. Yeah. I don't know if I should describe it. It wasn't PG. [00:30:19] Speaker D: You know, whoever knows Tompkins Square park. And then we did the first session there. And then the guy over there, Rick, he was from the barbarians. I recognized him from the video. Barbarians is the group that they. That's what they call themselves. We asked him, like, how do we train with, you know, the real guys, the. The best? And then he told us, come to Wingate. I'll email you. Wingate park in Brooklyn. So on Tuesday, twelve, I think it was. I remember we came and we were like, definitely not part of the scene with the first half an hour when we were waiting for the guys to come, we were standing there. But they were very nice, all of them. Even the ones that first sight. It's like there's nothing in common between us, but very fast, you become kind of friendly. And then we started the workout session, and we have videos from there. It's one of the best video days because everything is gold from there. There's a video of Charlie trying to do a pull up and. And then one of the guys holding him and like, you know, up, up. There you go, Superman. Like, you could do it. And he was, uh, he was. What were you, like 13 or twelve or something? There's a video of Yosef, like nine years old, and he's running from the pull ups to the dips to the push ups, and he's doing everything like one after the other. So, like, with that in the background, like the whole, you know, military full out, not giving up. That whole mentality is very strong. And I. And I know I went to Italy because I wanted a place that's going to prepare me the best for the army. And I can imagine that's what Josef also wanted, also inspired by me also being in special forces. So I can imagine that was the main. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Was there ever a discussion either as a father or amongst brothers and friends that, you know, making the most out of the army and therefore going into Dov Davan, going to special forces, these elite units, was that a desire to just be the best, or was it a desire to, I guess like a hydro mitzvah, as you said before, like, the jewish upbringing is just live it. So, you know, seeing it as like. [00:32:17] Speaker C: A. I think you have to differentiate between. It's. It's a little bit subtle, but what they teach at Lib and David is maybe I'm. You're going to correct me, perhaps, but it's not be your best. It's serve the country the best, which is a little bit different. I was brought up more sort of a chick frisky, which is beer best, which is like, you know, fed up your own skills. God gave you strength. Develop those. This is not that. This is, how can you serve the country the best? And it may be that the best way to do that is be your best, find what you're really good at, maybe not. And you do what's best for the country. So it's a different perspective, I would say, as a father. I don't think they asked me. I mean, you asked me. I remember. [00:33:05] Speaker D: I was gonna say, I remember a conversation we had when I'm in elite training and everything. And then you also, our grandfather, my grandfather, your father, Bupa, he also tried to convince me to be a rabbi in the army or something because he comes from, you know, the whole Vietnam war. Like in America, where you need to be a rabbi, you're gonna get drafted. Like, it's kind of the mindset and the switch obviously didn't happen as much as for us growing up here. But I remember our conversation, you telling me, like, yeah, why don't you go to some intelligence unit or something with computers, you know? And then I remember answering something around the lines of, no, I think I could do really well in combat. And you weren't too, of course, you didn't push too hard or anything. It was just, you know, you thought that'd be a good direction. And I kind of pulled a little bit to a different direction. That was before I, you know, did any, any screaming processes yet. It was the beginning of things, but just being around the guys in elite, it helps helped me a lot. And that was one of the reasons I went there, understand, because you see people drafting to good places and you're training with them the whole year, and then you kind of figure out where you can, because going in there, you have no idea. Like, you hear about all these great units and you have no idea. Am I even close? How do I. How do I do that? [00:34:22] Speaker E: So. [00:34:23] Speaker D: And I agree what you said about, you know, I think for myself, if I, if there wasn't a mandatory service, you didn't have to draft. There's. I don't. I would not draft. And once there was, I said, okay, if I'm going to go, I might as well make the most out of it. And that's kind of how I went into things. And then in Italy, they more and more add the ideal part of, we're here to serve something bigger, and we want to take part in the responsibility of building this country. We're not going to let other people build this country and just kind of tag along. [00:34:54] Speaker B: And I guess, I mean, for those more familiar with divine and the army, a lot of what you said kind of paves a natural path, in a way. But for our listeners who aren't so familiar with it, tell us a bit about that process that you went through. Ashok yourself went through from being in Ailey and then making that decision. How does it work? As you decide, this is the unit you want to be in. What's the process? [00:35:16] Speaker D: So the general process, the healthiest way, because actually, I've trained boys in the past three years to go into the army and pretty successful. The guys coming to train at me were also good guys. So it doesn't about how I train them, but the main thing I say to them is, you know, the healthiest way to do it is just try to do your best and let the army kind of do what it knows how to do. Don't be too fixated on, I need to be in this unit or I need to be in that unit. Like, you can understand you want to be in combat, or you understand you have nothing to do in combat, and you'll. I don't know, maybe you're not built for it and you want to be an intelligence, but don't be too driven towards something. You don't even know what it is. You don't even know what's really good for you. And that's why, for me, the process was very simple in a way, because unlike a lot of other people, which do the mistake, I didn't know much, and I just knew wherever I want to get to the greater units, and I'm just going to try as hard as I can. And wherever the army puts me, it puts in the army kind of have this funnel where you come to the Yom say o. And that's kind of the first step towards special forces in the army. And if you complete that, you're either sent to Shayetet Matkal Gibbous or to Chovlim Gibbush. And then through there, you navigate. If it's the Matkal gibbous, you might get Matkal or shaldag or sheshitesha or so everything. And you don't have to think much, you just have to. When they ask you, say what you rather, and when they ask you why, you just have to give whatever reason you have and don't be too. I have to be there because that's all nonsense. Like certain units. Also, I've seen people getting into good units, which weren't good for them. They ended up dropping out. It was much worse for them than getting into a more average. I guess unit, you could call it, which does very good for many people. So that's kind of my tip in a way. And also to answer the question of how it navigates. It's kind of just a flow. You go, whatever they invite you to, you do, and you find yourself in training one day. [00:37:21] Speaker C: Yeah. The funny story with Joseph, there was that before you do this very physically challenging filtering process, the gibbous, he donated blood. And we were all looking at him, thinking, why are you donating? Don't you think that might affect your performance just a little bit? It didn't occur to him. It wasn't like, yeah, so I heard. [00:37:40] Speaker D: From him that he went to donate blood, and I understood it, and then I said, okay, damage has been done, but let's not make it worse. Don't tell him, because then psychologically, it's going to make it even harder. And I was trying to, you know, but then I think we told. Yeah, someone told him, and that's not good, because one of the main tips for the gibbous is in your head. You have to always have it that the other person is having a harder time than you. And then if he's getting up the hill faster than you, then you know that you're not trying hard enough. And the minute in your head you might think, but wait, I donated blood. But wait, this or that, then that's. That's my break. You. So. [00:38:16] Speaker C: But that was really a yosef thing to do. Yeah, it was very simple life. [00:38:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:38:19] Speaker C: Like, someone comes, oh, don't eat. Better? Sure, why not? Oh, tomorrow I have to do the most physically demanding thing in my life. Oh, okay. [00:38:30] Speaker A: If we can move forward now to, I guess, talking about Simchat Torah. I mean, where we took a length of, like, how the country was affected, and we've spoken with people from, and people in the army as a family. Where were you? Where was your Seth? How did things unfold? [00:38:51] Speaker C: I'll start, perhaps, with where I found myself. And then everyone can tell their. Their story. We have a family minion, broader clan. So we were gonna join the clan minion, and we all were in Yushalayim for Simchat Torah. It was the first time the family minion, normally, which took place with my grandmother's hospices, had moved to someone else's house. So I went to the minion, I guess. I don't even remember when it started, but it must start at 830, something like that. Whenever it was, Joseph showed up, and he was standing next to me. There was a Simon at 815 oh, so I must have gotten there earlier. [00:39:32] Speaker D: I think it was called for eight or a chord. Eight. [00:39:36] Speaker C: Okay. So yeah, because we got that before the sirens. First siren, I think, was eight Yosef in Duvdivan. So his life, we didn't speak much about what he did in Duvdivan, but he was very, very active. We were told he was the most active soldier in the israeli army because Duv Dhavan is very active and his team was super active. And he on his team was the most active. So he was constantly being called up to activity. So on Simchatra, he was told he needed to go to do an activity in Ayush, in Shechem, Janine, wherever it was. But he had at 12:00. So 01:00 so we were waiting for him to get called up. But we thought, okay, we'll dive in together, we'll eat, and then you go. That was like a typical type of a Shabbos activity, kind of. So at about nine ish, he started to check his phone and he saw what was happening. I think at 915 ish, 920, Yosef decided he needed to go. So his friends, it turned out he wasn't called up. But he saw what was happening and he took it upon himself to head south a little bit after that. Idijah's son in law, who's an officer in Givati, he got a phone call about 1030. And he went up. And then we went to eat at Charlie's house. And about 230, Charlie got a phone call and Charlie went up. And in the back of my head, we had known Asher had already gone down south. We met your wife at about ten ish. So we kind of understood what was happening. That's how we felt it from being parents. I mean, the moment that Charlie got the phone call was very difficult. That was like three boys and one son in law were all fighting. [00:41:25] Speaker D: Yeah. So I woke up at eight from the siren. I was supposed to get wooden by my cousin. She lives above us at a quarter day to bring me to shul on time. And I don't know yet if it would have been lucky or if she would ever. If she wouldn't have woken me up. This could have gone many ways. But I woke up from the siren. And then first thing I did, I looked for some kind of shelter. And then I started thinking, wait a minute, what's happening? I check my phone because in my midoim, in my reserve. So we get called up for things relatively fast. That's what we're supposed to do. So my phone's always on. And I looked at the WhatsApp groups, and I saw that everyone saying, come now, come now, come now, come now. And I understood. Okay, I gotta go. That together with the sirens, like, there wasn't a question. So I got in the car, I called a few friends from Jerusalem that were with me in the unit, and one of them didn't answer. The other one came with me. We drove down. We got down at around, I think, nine to base. Fastest drive I ever did. And I don't regret, like, a second of it, because every second that they counted, it's crazy. It's like the most extreme situation, and every minute really counted. So when we got to base, kind of everyone's there. You know, grab your gun, grab your bag, grab your vest, a grenade inside, get on a car. I grabbed a machine gun last minute, took a few extra chains for the machine gun. I just kind of what? You know, you didn't even know what you're going to. You just right before we left base, they said, by the way, like, every force that left, every task force that left before you was shot at, before they made it to where they're supposed to go. So that's when we kind of understood what's happening. But this whole day is progressing through, like, from, okay, they're shooting Jerusalem to there's rockets everywhere because we see the smoke everywhere. To I see telegram, video my friend shows me this was at base where I really understand what's happening, where there's a soldier being dragged into a truck in Sde rote. And then I'm like, okay, it's bad. You know, if they're in sedot dragging people into trucks and they're calling us, it's pretty bad. But again, you have to understand, like, in the 99% of these kind of situations, they're pretty, I guess, like, pinpoint, localized. And by the time you get there, you expect the guys that left at 08:00 a.m. because they're on call on base would already be there. And if not them, then the imam or the police. There's so many people. But now that we all knew what happened, that was not the case in any way. So that I only understood how much it wasn't the case was when we understood they were shot at before they got everywhere. That means the terrorists are everywhere. So as we drive down, we start seeing, you know, the police kind of Masalim the checkpoints, and then. And then you just go into this kind of scene from, I don't know how to describe it better than, like, a video game of just bodies everywhere and the mind. Everything looks fake, in a way. You understand, of course, what's happening, but it kind of. You're on. You're very, very focused, and you know what you need to do. And it turns out that Yoni Steinberger, I think his name is Machat Nachal. So he was killed. He's maybe my second cousin or something like that. He was killed at the junction that we arrived at right after, and that's where we fought the. So I found myself 1030 fighting terrorists at Tsumet Maon. It's called the junction over there with my guys and not thinking about it, anyone, really, other than, wow, I've never been so close to being dead, you know, in between. And it's a very weird feeling. Like, I never felt that in my life. You know, we've done operations and stuff, but. But seeing so much death around you and just having it from so close. And our commander gets shot over there at the junction, and then I'm. We're taking him back to Mada, and we're CPR and trying to keep him alive, and. And it's all kind of. While you're doing the things, you're doing the things, but it's a running behind you in your head, like, what is happening? Like, I can't believe this is the reality I'm living right now. But video game mode, like, everything's very technical. And I finished that day at six or 07:00 p.m. like, we kind of just drove around everywhere. It was, you know, a day of one of a kind. And at the end of that day, I understand, like, okay, my commander died. I understand, you know, a lot of other people died that no one even knows yet how much because we've seen it. Like, right after that junction, we drove through where the party was. And that's when I understand, like, another scale, like, magnitude times ten of you just see countless cars burning and fire and, like, burnt bodies and people and. And dead police and everything, and. And it's, like, right in front of you, and there's hundreds, and it just. There's just some kind of, like, I don't know how to describe all the cars are. You can just imagine how they all try to exit, and you see the terrorist cars standing there, their jeep standing on the other side with all the rpg's still in the back, and you just. The scene is playing before your eyes how it was an hour ago. We came kind of when it just got in hand. So at the end of that day, I remember I called my family, and I said, I'm fine. Not everyone's fine, but I'm fine. And I was emotional, and it was like I understood this is not a normal day, and it's the beginning of something that we don't know how it's going to end. And the next morning, I wake up, and I understand that a friend from my tzevid was also killed. He was with another task force. Like I knew it in the night, but in the morning, I kind of sleep on it, and then it hits me. And then the afternoon, I hear that people from the Divan were killed. So I text Yosef, and only at that point, it hits me, because until that point, I think Yosef is supposed to be now in Shechem or Janine, whatever. He's not supposed to be this area. I remember telling my friends, yeah, I have one brother up north, Charlie, one brother in Yudavisham. And I'm here. We're all over. And then it hits me, wait a minute. Obviously we're here. This is that kind of situation. And I text him, and he. I see, like, one v. So his phone's off, so it's already not a good sign. So I call home, and at home, they don't say that he called. So I got even more worried. And then I start texting everyone from the divine, and they start answering me. All these are things like, we don't know yet who's injured, who's not, what's happening. And at that point, I understand, okay, not good, not good, not good. But we continue that day, we ended up going up, up north. And I remember that night I didn't want to sleep because I knew the second I wake up, I wake up into a reality that if I rationally think about it, I kind of know what happened, and I don't want to wake up in that reality. And I remember hearing through that day rumors about and rpg and. And then I did sleep half an hour that night. And, like, I was just having this recurring nightmare of Akfaraza and what's happening there. And the next. The next morning, I wake up. I first go to the leviathan of my friend, like my commander that was killed in Netanyahu. And then I start heading home because I understand, like, what's happening. And I call my cousin, who's also into Divan, and he tells me, yeah, look, it's not good at all. And then I'm in this situation where I don't know what to do. Am I supposed to go home? Am I supposed to go back to base and wait for my parents to call me? What am I supposed to do? So I end up managing to get in touch with the people that deliver the message to the families, and I meet them over there, and that's the first place that they actually tell me what happened. Because I don't know if he's kidnapped or if he's dead dead or if he's really, really injured, but those are the three options. In my, in my street, in Bechamish. Like, I don't hope she wanted to. That's when I understand. And that's a minute before we end up telling my parents. And a lot of the family was there, his wife, the kids. So it all kind of happens together. And that's when I really let it sink in, because until then, still, I don't know if he's kidnapped. I know something bad happened, very bad. Um, that's what I know. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Johnny, just, yeah, I'll fill in the. [00:49:35] Speaker E: Picture from my side. So I also, we got to the davening a bit late because all the rockets, it took us a while to leave the house. And again, we had no idea what was happening. But the people in the, in the shelter that were with us, they were on their phones and they said, yeah, guys, it's really bad. You shouldn't go. You shouldn't go. Like, my mind's like, oh, it's fine, it's rocket. It's like, why shouldn't we go out? So we went, we left the house. [00:49:58] Speaker C: House. [00:49:58] Speaker E: And we got there. And by the time we got there, I already see didya leaving, going off, and I think I might have been maybe one of the only teenager men still around. Most of them already went home to get their phones or drafted or didn't even show up because they were drafted. It took me a while to realize, okay, maybe I should go back and get my phone. And after like half an hour or 15 minutes, okay, I'm gonna go back. I'm in a unit that, like, if, if they call me, it's war. That's usually what it is. And rockets. Like, rockets, war. We had this before. I didn't, didn't, like, really didn't think about it. I went home and turned on my phone and I see, okay, guys, prepare your stuff. We might be calling you really soon, so prepare my things, take a short nap, and. Okay, I may need a rest. We'll be sleeping a lot. They still didn't call me. And by then, my parents came and we started having our meal. In the middle of the meal. Ready, left, go. And then my sister hears my phone, like, doing a lot of beeps. They didn't call, but they sent tons of Whatsapps. And like, oh, I look okay. I have to go. And around 03:00 I get in the car with a friend of mine. We drive up to the north, and scene. Driving up to the north is like, every other person on the street is like, you look right, look left. I just kept doing that. I just named the whole. Just reserves going up to the north. They don't understand that we were racing Hezbollah. It's like, we have to get to the border first before Hizabhara can do what happened in the south. So we go, we get up to where our unit decides to be, and we get our tub, we get our guns, we get everything we need. We go into our vehicles. Not much of a vehicle in. It's more scary to be in them than out of them. Yeah, I think every time I get in, I start davening. I'm like, okay, if I get shot by any bullet, it's not really do much, but it's the way to move. So we get into our nag machine, and then we go to Mozav. First Mozab. We were in Wasab Natouch, but it was close to the border, and that's where we were. We were there. I was there for now. I had no idea what was really happening. No, I knew really bad was happening. But the whole time, I was telling my guys, okay, I only want to hear good things. I want to hear good things. Don't share with me all the horrible things that are happening and didn't occur to me, like, to worry about Yosef or, my gosh, I heard he was okay, but I don't know why it didn't occur to me. But I was not easy those two days, so I don't know if I had something to do with it. We were there. I was there for two days. I managed to be there until Monday night. And in those two days, what we were doing was we started doing ma ravim. [00:52:34] Speaker C: So ambushes. [00:52:35] Speaker E: Ambushes. So you go down to the border, and this was at the beginning, before the border was like, you can't get close to it. The beginning. We got amash on it, close to it. And we would just, like, take a spot, sit there for 8 hours. Whatever it was, I don't remember exactly. And wait and see if they come and if they show up. And that's what we did for those two days. We switched between. And on Monday night it already started heating up. So Monday night we went to another ambush. And while I was sitting in the ambush, they saw an untet tarma and a missile. Yeah. Against tanks. And the tank shot above us. So it started heating up. But while I'm in the ambush, so my mempe drives by and says, gedalia, get in the car. Tells me to get in the car. And then I already realized, okay, something's not good. Like, don't just come right now while they're shooting us. Nintendo, take me out of ambush. So I'm really like, oh, no, I know, like, something bad happened. The question was just who? So he drives me to Isha babi Vime was. And we get to safe area where they can't really hit us. He got the car and I just ask him, okay, who? [00:53:47] Speaker C: Who? [00:53:47] Speaker E: He tells me sf and that's how I figure it out. So I am, I'm all the way in the Teflon, like 2 hours, two and a half hours away from everyone. And then I just try to get out of there. I have to still get my stuff from. It's like under attack. So we go in fast, fast we get out of there and I get a ride down to home. And it was a hard two hour ride because, like, you don't really want to share with the driver but you're just like running inside. And then I get home and they're all waiting for me. Really nice of them waiting for me. And that was my experience. [00:54:25] Speaker C: Well, I'll tell you some of the stuff we heard after the fact. So Yosef left, said around 930, he left Jerusalem. He went to Malay Adumim, which is where his base is. He picked up some equipment and at this stage of the game, there was no organized unit heading out. So he and another friend, guy and two other people, but from other subunits. So the Duvudavan is divided into these subunits. So one of his friends from his subunit who they specialize in drone warfare joined him. But two other people from the. Not from his subunit joined him. The four of them go south. They get to KFZ at about ten 3011. What had happened in QF, it turns out I know all the details, of course, was the Matkal guys had gone in first. I think they had suffered losses. There were casualties there. The divan went in after them. They suffered some casualties. And now Josef's team arrives and at first they arrive. I think there are four semi armored vehicles. They're called Davids, lightweight jeeps that are armored. And they came in and they evacuate the first group of wounded and dead. So that was the first activity. Then Josef's team go back, goes back in. Now at this stage, there were after the fact, it turns out maybe hundreds, more than 100 terrorists walking around kfas. Three out of the four vehicles are non functioning. So it wasn't like they just walked in, drove up, picked up their stuff. They walked in, they get shot at. Three vehicles aren't functioning anymore, but one vehicle is Yosef's vehicle. So Yosef, Guy Nachman and or go back in and and they're moving from east to west, working their way through Caraza. So the second time they go in, they live farther west. And now they come into an area where there's an injured civilian and some other injured people. They evacuate those injured and the civilians. There's a video of it if you really want to see. And then dutch civilian recovered fully, but he was critically injured at the time, and they evacuated him. They take him out and they apply first aid. Then they go back in a third time. The third time they go back in again. They're the only vehicle that's entering deep into Khurasa. And now they've moved farther west. At the far western side, there's what was known as the Kvar Noor, the youth hostel area, which is like two rows of little low houses. And in these houses are terrorists and civilians that are being either they were kidnapped, they're hostages, one of both. So they went down at first, down the middle of them. So they have left and to the left and to the right they have these houses, and they're firing from their vehicle and killing the terrorists and trying to save the civilians. They finish a round of going in between the two rows of houses, and they come out again to the farther west side. Now they're coming down the houses where on their right, on the western side is a fence that leaves Caraza, and on the left they have the houses. And as they're pulling up into the house, they get hit by an RPG. So it seems RPG didn't explode, but it did ignite the fuel tank, we think, and the vehicle goes on fire. The four of them managed to get out of the vehicle. So the two in the back, Josef and guy were in the back. They suffer from smoke and burns. They jump out of the vehicle. The two in the front get out from the front door, and they find themselves semi protected because they're against the wall. Of the construction of the house above their head. There's a civilian in Mahmad who's saying that there are terrorists in her house. So the scene is there's a vehicle on fire. There are two soldiers adjacent to a building above their head of civilian inside that house are terrorists. Yosef and his friend guy. When they get out of the vehicle, they get out farther west on the western side of the vehicle. Immediately as they get out, they throw a grenade at them. So they have to split up. They dive together, they head farther west and the second grenade is thrown and guy goes north and Yosef goes west, talking about 1020ft this way or that way. And that's the last we hear of Yosef being alive. So a guy calls Alfayosef and they can't find him. The story is long, but it's all under fire between the RPG's and the constant weaponry or also gets killed at that junction. Plus, minus guy and Nachman, the survivors from that vehicle, they were evacuated maybe a half hour later. About 3 hours later, more Dubdevan people show up. A friend of Josef Rodriguez puts up a drone and he spots Joseph's body face down, but outside the fence. So now it seems they had been dragging, the terrorists had been dragging his body out. He recognizes Joseph's body. So again, you have to appreciate, Natasha can tell you that the terrorists were wearing israeli uniforms. At times it wasn't clear who's who, but Yosef always wore succeed. And they reckon they find this seat and he also, his vest had a special pouch for batteries for the drones. And they recognize him. So they send the Golani team to get them. The Golani gets there and there are two terrorists trying to drag his body to Aza. They kill the terrorists, they recover the body and they bring him back. That was 7 October, quite a terrible day. [01:00:03] Speaker F: The. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Sorry you spoke of Josef. As you know, the thing you mentioned is his smile that he both annoyed but charmed his teachers with his smile, that he was happy, charming, mischievous. After October 7, Simchat Torah, what's been the thing that you focus on more, you know, as a nation, as Jews around the world, whether in Israel or in the diaspora, it is very difficult to focus on just one person, one name. The numbers have been overwhelming. As a family, as his friends, what's been the thing that you will come back to about yourself? I don't want to use the word legacy, but what's the enduring memory? What's the thing that. [01:01:12] Speaker D: I'd say brotherhood first in a way. You have the pasuke at the chayanohim of the who Yosef says to his, when he's looking for his brothers. And to me, that kind of sums up so many things about this story, because Yosef's team, what they wrote about him in his basic training, we were able to see what everyone thought about Yosef, and it was like every single person said, yosef's always there first for you and then for himself. He's always worrying about everyone. He'll help you with what you need to do, even if he's going to get in trouble for not doing his own job. And that's, like one side of it. And then on the day itself, Yosef doesn't think about himself in any point of the way. He just goes to the most dangerous place where the truth needs to be told. Many soldiers were in the area, and not many soldiers had the courage to do what Yosef and those three guys did, which is to go into where the terrorists were, while there's civilians there, where the chances of coming out alive are not high. It's just not high. Like, you can understand what you're doing. Definitely after 3 hours of being there and being sprayed at bullets and everything he's seen and experienced throughout that day, until that point. So also until that point and everything also that led up to this point, because one of the things that we know that made Hamas and Sinwa make the decision to do the attack is they saw there is a terror in the nation. There is, you know, there is a whole mess about the reform or whatever, and people are saying, don't serve in the army, and people are saying, don't do me ruin. And people are saying all this kind of stuff and seeing what it thinks. And this is stuff I'm saying, based on what Shabak interrogate terrorists that came in here and what's been told on the news, that he assumes that he can break us apart completely by attacking us at this weak point. It's like Amalek. It's literally what he thought he could do. And that's part of the, in a way, to me, because before that, the brothers were not united. And we have this one brother that cares for us. He's coming to take care of us. He sent out there, and afterwards, we're coming together and we're understanding. Wait a minute. No, actually, unity is the number one priority. And that, to me, I think, answers your question of, like, the legacy of Yosef is brotherhood first. I think it's something that also crosses through religious, not religious like, it's just. It's just jewish israeli base. The most basic, basic thing that connects us all throughout all the spectrums. And that to me, is something that I'm trying to get the message out that there's. And it's. It applies right now because we have people that are being, you know, they're hostages. Like, I'm lying down in bed last night, and I'm just not comfortable thinking about it. That, like, I'm dead tired, I'm a little cold or whatever, and I'm under a blanket. And there's people that this is their daily number, I don't know, 100. And what that they're doing this and I'm just not comfortable. And I feel like every jew around the world has to feel that and think, what am I not doing enough? Because it is not. We're all. We're all one. There isn't. We can't sell one brother to Egypt and live happily here or to Gaza and whatever. And if it comes to understanding, I don't think enough people understand, definitely, probably not outside Israel, that we are in an existential threat. We were always in a central threat. We just didn't know it until October 7. Many of us didn't know it since Imchatoa, many more of us know it, but still not enough know it after maybe the next war, the one after that may be coming up very soon, even more people will know it. Right? So we're in an existential threat, and it's come the only way for it to actually apply meaning. The only way I believe our existence will be threatened completely is if we're not united. That's the bottom line. And everyone understands that. And we see that also from the days of Tanakh. And like I met yesterday, she was like, she came out in the news lately because she said that she regrets all her hateful kind of speech or things that she said that weren't, like, in line with united and brotherhood. Even though we disagree, at least we're brothers first thing. And one thing she said, she said she kept now four. Chavez is straight. And the reason for her getting more religious is because she literally feels like we're living a chapter in the Tanakh. She's saying, like, in Ahav's days, they did not fight and there was peace, and they were strong empires. In Judea and Israel, they were both strong empires. And we had days of big tzadikim who were learning Torah, who were doing what a lot of communities now think they need to be doing, which is not unity. It's maybe other jewish customs. And that is not enough. What God wants us to do, number one, is not speak lashon hara about each other and not fight with each other. And then he'll deal with us later if, you know, if we're still not good. But that's the basics of the basics. So that's, I guess, the message. And it comes twofold, I guess, because one, it's for what Yosef and what he stood for. And two, it's for that Yosef, I guess not being here now won't be just for nothing, because we're just going to have more wars if this continues. And they're only going to be worse. People think that we're past the worst of it. We're really not past the worst of it. In many, many ways this can play out. [01:06:47] Speaker E: I want to just fill in a few points. I agree with last year, a few stories to really show how this was Yosef like. So we mentioned this beforehand, but also his friends noticed it. But Yosef really didn't have separation between people. Like, he didn't see a person and look at him in a certain way because he was dressed in a certain way. He had friends from all you could say, gvanim, from all types. Types. I don't know, because he really saw the inside, he saw the plummy. He saw who you are connected. And he had this way to see the good in everyone and everything, as in story, also the show. Nothing about how he was all about Nola Shenar, Nol Khilot when he was in the army. And they would sit together, the unit. So once he would, like, feel, okay, this is not really going where I want to go. So he would get up and say, sorry, guys, but this is not going to make the beta Hamidas come any faster. And he would get up and walk away. And I double checked this because it's really crazy sentence to come and tell your guys in the unit also, like, what they're going to look at you funny. But also, he didn't have that problem. He really lived what he believed. And. And this also connects to what we said about Daliya Legar. My memory also for Dariga was very simple also, I think, I believe this way, our simplicity is what do we want? What's our chazan? Where are we heading to? And when you look out, like when you look in the broader perspective and you look in the perspective of Amislad and Qladislad, I think, lived to its fullest. He wouldn't sleep for Amisad. He would work extremely hard. He would jump shabbos out. And for him, it was very simple. Like, his friends at some point was like, hey, maybe we won't do this activity, maybe we won't do the next one. But for him was like, no, this is important. We're saving lives. We're helping up, we're saving people. It was simple. It was Qadhi soil. It was Ami slam the chazon of, we're going one step closer to Beit Hamdash. That was another saying of his, or another saying was, sprintle Beit Hamikdash. We're gonna take a sprint for Beit Hamikdash. Like, he really knew what he wanted and where he was going, where he was heading. And his whole being was for Ami, say, his whole being was for Qral Israel. That's who he was. And he didn't see the differences. He only saw, had he only saw the Kalal. Another thing I wanted to say, but I forgot. [01:09:27] Speaker C: What are the challenges we personally faced which embodies this, is this. Push me, pull you from the national tragedy to the private tragedy. And what Charlie's describing is that Josef lived at both levels seamlessly. I don't know that it's really hard to communicate what it looks like to have somebody in your house who doesn't really have that private space thing going for him. He's really just. I mean, one of my clear memories of him on Shabbat is Shabbos afternoon. He refused to take a nap. He didn't sleep all week. Literally hours, very few hours, because he was busy saving lives. And then Shabbat's afternoon, he and his wife would sit on the couch. He would learn. We learned Masachet Shabbat, and just the two of them sitting next to each other on the couch and just being together was a very. Just a beautiful thing to see. There was nothing, I think, part of why, now that I'm reflecting on it, part of what was so beautiful about it was how there was no private goal like Yosef and Sinai. They weren't being individuals, they were just being a couple. It was a beautiful thing. [01:10:52] Speaker E: And also, I want to share that. It's really some magical thing he managed to do, is jump between the identities. He would say, like, even in the most crazy time for du Devan, where they were getting shot at every single night, when he would come home and he would always try to get back to. If it was like we had something in Sukkot, I know he didn't sleep the night before, and he called me. He's like, oh, maybe your father in law is kind of. Maybe you can drive me, drop me. He always tried to get places and do things, even though if he's dead tired, it wasn't was an issue for him. He was like, okay, I'll sleep 2 hours, and I'll go be with the family. I like values, really strong values, being the family. And when he was with us, we. We felt him with us, like, we didn't feel him in a different place. He was with us 100%. And in this time, I didn't feel like, oh, he's too busy in the army. No, he always showed up. We came by, took cookies, laughed, made him granola. Like, he was always interaction was there, and he really managed somehow to live a whole life. I don't know how else to describe it. [01:11:52] Speaker B: So you painted a picture before in terms of talking about the house growing up, obviously with Torah influences, and that central part that Torah played as a whole family, also in your individual journeys through China and in the army, David, you mentioned before in terms of just now, about Yosef's commitment to learning parsha with Ishmael Mikrae. Tell us a little bit about that. And this project that we've been. We've had here at Corian, we've had the privilege to have a little bit. [01:12:24] Speaker D: Of an involvement in. Again, I think it's a pretty basic. I know that at some point, I understood that it's something that you need to do. It's not like an extra. If you're extra good and you have extra time, then do it. It's brought down in the shulchan of thing, so it's like, okay, if I'm gonna learn something first, I'll learn what I need to do anyways, and then I'll learn more things after that. So in the army, also, you don't always have the most time to learn. Yosef was very good at making extra time and finding time, but the minimum, at least, is on Shabbat in between, and when you have a book and in the army, to do the Shnai mikra. So he definitely kept to that. Like, he definitely put that as a priority and made sure it happened every week, no matter what kind of weekend. [01:13:17] Speaker C: The language of the Gemara, the language of the Shohanar, I'm sure you're familiar with this. All is forever. One should always complete Yashlim, complete the parshiot with the community. It's not that you're required to learn. It doesn't say, like, no, it's Yashlim. Parshiotav imatsibur it's a very unique type of learning, because it's a community learning. So I think on that, it's talking, reflecting back on the things we said before that for Yosef, that's very suitable to do community learning. It's not about private learning, just be part of the community. It wasn't so hard for him. That was a magical thing. With Yosef, things are. I don't know how often you've tried to do Paima mika Vatagum. It may not be the easiest thing for everyone to do, but for Yosef, guess why not. [01:14:15] Speaker A: So, previously we've asked this question at the beginning of the episode, but we felt appropriate today to wait until the end. Can you teach us the whole Torah al Raghelachat? Whether it's your own, whether it's what Yosef's Torah would be? [01:14:39] Speaker C: Okay, I came prepared with one idea, and now that you're saying it, I had a whole other one. Gee, I'm Torn. I'll take two. Can I take two? Is that fair enough? Two answers. Okay, we can make pretend one of my answers is for all of us. So I'll start my second answer. My second answer apo that Gemara. This is teach me the Torah and regula. So there are three stories there with Shema and Hilal. That's, I think, the third one. The first or the second one is the heir. The person he comes to Shammai, he says, how many torat are there? And Shemay says, two. So he says, teach me, convert me. On condition that you teach me one of them. Only one Torah. Shabbat. Not Torah, Shabbat. Shammai kicks him out. Then he goes to Hilal, same thing. The two Torah convert me if there's only one. So Hilal says, sure, no problem. And on the first day they do alef bet kim il Giml. Wonderful. He comes back on the second day, Hilal points at the alif, he goes, that's a gimel, points to the belly, that's a dalad, points to the giml, goes, that's an alif, the garrison. Wait a minute. Yesterday you said other way around. He goes, wait, you need you believe me from yesterday. Oh, so there has to be a Torresha bar too. I think that story that captures the junction between Torah Bhtav and Toshibal penniless. And I think one of my answers teach me the whole Torah of egg Rachad, is that if you're learning Torah and it's external from you, it's this Torah Bhtav. It's written down. It can exist without you interpreting it. That's not Torah. That's not being Jewish. Being Jewish is when the Torah peh, which I take literally, mean my mouth speaking those words, like I'm living those words, then you can have a tosh bakhtav. You can't have a Torah shabakhtav if you don't live it. So I'm gonna project that to Yosef as being. Maybe. Maybe he would answer that. I don't know. It's a sophisticated answer, but he was a deep thinker. But he wouldn't have to say it. He would just live it. Right? He wouldn't actually. He wouldn't have to say it. You'd look at him and you go, oh, I get it. [01:17:00] Speaker E: Yeah. [01:17:03] Speaker D: So I think what I said before about it and Yosef's personality of first the other, and then him relates really well to this question, because at the end of the day, that's literally like, it's the kyum of it in the most literal sense. It's maybe even more. And that's like. Or something. But so that's kind of, like, interesting to point out. That was Yosef, how I explained it. A few sentences. I think if you ask me in my day to day, like, where do I feel like this is what God wants of me in the world? This is the Torah. This is the. You know, I think Kiddush Hashem, to me, is the mitzvah, the Torah, the everything. You know, Khiro Hashem is the biggest of iron. There's no, as the ramam says, and Kiddush Hashem would be the opposite of that. And I think it just encapsulates all the different sides of things, of Der Kheritz, of being someone who attracts more people to the Torah and more people to the truth and the connection and not the opposite, because I feel like all the learning and all the everything, and at the end of the day, if you're not able to do Kedush Hashem with that, then you're definitely wrong somewhere. If people are going around and they don't like you and you're not able to get anyone to feel any more connected or to see any good in it, then it's all not true. Nothing there is happening. So that's where I would put it. [01:18:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:18:43] Speaker E: So when I was thinking of the question before, I think more out of connecting to Yasa. But I. I want to go back to what we were talking about beforehand of Qalisrael. So there's a famous thing where we know that the Rambam din Limnot Eretisrael is one of the mitzvahs. And that's. How can that be? And that answer that I heard, I think, was that mitzvah, it's such an obvious mitzvah, they don't even have to leave not to say it. So I think for, like, you have to understand that the Torah thing is, if we think the Torah as a personal thing, a private thing, then we don't understand it at all. It's not another dat or another kaat. It's when we say to our. We think in the terms of Qalisa, in terms of amissa. Also, we know in the Torah, you can't actually, as an individual, do all the mitzvahs. You have mitzvahs that only Quanim could do. Yeah, mitzvahs only devim could do, only slay could do. The only way for us to really is as a unity as a whole, as something. And so thinking of Torah as something that you can do, and I'm going to be a bit harsh outside Israel, I think Yasaburgumi cannot. It doesn't work. When we think of a Torah, it's something we do as an am, something we do in Israel, it's a misfah mitzvah. And only in Israel we can even start talking about it. Only Israel we could even access the Torah. Like we know Ramban says that outside Israel, it's only. So we remember. So when we come to Israel, we could even come and do the mitzvahs. I think also the thing about the Torah of Krali Salami, so that's really the ashes trying to say how it's so important we have these three together, the Ahadut am Yisrael and Israel and Torah together. But in a broader aspect, in the Qlais aspect, I think, yes, lived really his whole entire life. And that, for me, I think, paints the bigger picture. [01:20:51] Speaker D: I want to like, in a way, add to Charlie and in a way, connect it to what I said before, and maybe also give it a little different angle towards people that don't obviously relate to that or feel that to be true. Obviously, we had, in the times of the Gemara, are some of our biggest rabbanim and people we look up to, people that didn't live in Israel, and we know that Torah grew out of Israel. But I just think to connect it to what I said before about the Knesset member and living the chapter in the Tanakh, I guess in one sentence, you could just say, you don't want to be out of that chapter. You don't want to be sitting aside, watching that chapter happen. You want to at least be in that chapter and maybe even be the good side of the story. Right? We have people in Israel that might see. They might look back in history and be like, I guess we were on the wrong side of history, but at least they were in history. You don't want to. You don't want to be sitting out of history. And when history is playing out through our eyes, it's just, you want to be part of it. [01:21:56] Speaker C: And we can edit this out the next bit here. But it's a little bit of Torah, which I think is. Because, again, you asked, connecting to Parasha Shavua, connecting to Shna Mikra, connecting to actual rashi. So my Torah would be a little cliche like, but the Pasug Shema Yisrael, Hashem Alokino, Hashemohad. So there's a machlokit. How to interpret that? There's a rashi and a ramba. So Rashi says, hashem shuhu alokenu huyyeh echad, as in, right now it's not one. Right now we have Hashem Alokenu. And what does that mean? Shad is going to be that Malhot is a type of relationship we have with God, which is perhaps imposed upon us. Whatever we want to say now we have that relationship in the future, like he says, last week's parsha. So then also the Shemishalem, yad al kesya mel hamaban. So God's name, which is the yud and the hey, will become complete when Amalek is destroyed. Bim, rabbi. Amen. As we speak, we're working on that. And then Hashem Ahad. So that's what Rashi says. So God's name will be complete when Bayah Bayamu Yashem Ahadushmu echad. The rambam has a different perspective. The Rambam, he enumerates the two mitzvot, the mitzvah of Kabrat ul Mahochimayim and the mitzvah of Ahdut Hashem. But they come together in the word echad. So the Rama reads apostle Shemay sal, Hashem Lokenu as a prefix. Hashem Echad is where everything comes together. The Ahtut exists now. God is one now. And recognizing that is the definition of Kabbalah. It's not that. Hashem Alokenu is the Kabrat al Mukha. Maim Hashem ahad is a future activity. As Rashi explains, it's that Hashem Ahad. That's everything. And I think that kind of relates to what Charlie and Asher are saying here, that living Tachat Ulmukh Shamayim is living in Ahduthe. And that hits you in many different ways. It's the ahdut with Yosef and his wife on the couch and Shabbos learning, just being together. It's the ahtut of the family. It's the ahtut of Amisal. It's the ahtut of Eisral together with Amisal. Yes. My Torah, in that sense, is. It resonates with this ahtut that's present today, and we've experienced it over the last couple of months. [01:24:38] Speaker B: I'm David Asha. Charlie, it's been a real privilege for us to have a chance to sit down with you. Obviously, we've got a picture in terms of the Gedalia house and the family and the Torah that you've shared and the Torah that you learned and told us about. I think, really, we can see the importance and understanding about what it means to really take that, to internalize it, to live it. And I think that's something that really, personally, I found. I think it's something that Joseph certainly encapsulated to really embody that with his whole self, with his life. And thank you just so much for joining us and for sharing, telling us a bit about yourself. [01:25:27] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you. [01:25:28] Speaker E: Thank you. [01:25:30] Speaker B: And we are joined today by Rachel Goldberg and John Pollan. Thank you so much for joining us. And can you start off by teaching us your Torah, Al Ragalachat on one leg? [01:25:43] Speaker G: Oh, boy. Okay. Well, that's really hard for me, because I realized when I saw that question that I have a lot of torahs, and I'm not really good at standing on Reg Aleichad. But so am I allowed to mention a couple ideas quick, even though, I mean, I guess you have no choice but to say yes. The first thing I'll say is that because I came to Dutti Judaism, observant Judaism, later than some other people have been privileged to do in Devarim, in Paraklamid, when it talks about lo Bashamayimhi, you know, like this Torah that I'm giving you today, when Hashem is talking, don't worry, it's not in the sky that you have to find someone to come and bring it to you, or it's not across the water that it has to. It could be whatever it is for you. And I've always loved that idea that our Torah is what it is to each of us individually. So that speaks very loudly to me. And you know what? Maybe I'll leave it at that. That was like, very good. I have some other ideas, but we could talk about that later, and we'll give John a turn to tell his Torah. [01:26:57] Speaker F: So I'm going to go to the most classic alregelechat Torah, which is the. And I want to apply it to today in two different lenses. One is, I presume that the listeners of this podcast understand that our son has been held hostage for 136 days. And so I think about HiRSch, our son, all day, every day. And I think about his captors, and I think what happened on October 7 was the absence of humanity, as the pope said to RacHel a few months ago. But I hope that today, whoever is holding him is finding some humanity and treating him well, reasonably well. So I'm constantly saying that to his captors. But the second side of it is, Rachel's talked a lot in the last 136 days about how we are every family's, every person's worst nightmare right now. And it makes people uncomfortable to talk to us, to be with us, to see us on the street. And numerous times per day I have an interaction where somebody comes over and they have nothing to say, or they even say, I don't know what to say, and it's awkward. And I'm constantly telling myself, I understand people are awkward. Just respond with encouragement, with thanks, with support. Let them know that just them showing up is strengthening to us. And I try to respond to them the way that I would want people to respond to me in my awkward moments. [01:28:25] Speaker H: It's interesting because from the outside, both of you are very public figures right now. As much as you don't want to be, that's not the position that you chose to be. But unfortunately, you have to be in order to be fighting for Hirsch's life and Hirsch's return, which we hope is today. But from coming from the outside and also, like so many people now that have that look at your facebook, that see you on the news and everything, it's so interesting because we see it as that everybody's trying to embrace you and everybody wants to be close. So obviously, like, that's easy when you're not actually in front of you, when then you are in front of you, it's a whole different story. So it's a good lesson. It's a good hafta lerecha. Kamocha lesson for everybody to realize, like, hey, this is a situation that you're going in. And as awkward as it is, don't shy away from it. You need everyone to be there. You need everyone to be present. Because we need Hirsch and the other 133 hostages let out today. [01:29:27] Speaker G: Right? And, you know, the other thing that is a piece of that as well for your Torah, John, is that unfortunately, we are in a situation where I don't know that everyone is saying, Hirsch is our son. We should treat this family and these 134 hostage families as if it is our own family. There's been recently this really unfortunate, excruciatingly painful campaign to kind of put hostage families, like, in a separate category than am Yisrael, than the whole entire nation of jewish people around the world. And that's been really, really painful for us. And I think, again, if people can get back into this idea of Kamocha, we are Komoha. We are just like you. Hirsh is just like your son. Hirsch is just like your loved one. And maybe that can help bring us more together, which is something we've all been struggling with pre October 7 as a nation. [01:30:36] Speaker A: If we can go back to pre October 7, which I know is a difficult headspace to try and maintain, but you came with two different torret, perhaps as connections there. But could you tell us a bit about what was it like growing up in the Goldberg Pollen house? What was, you know, the values that you tried to instill in your family? The things that you either actively, consciously discussed with each other of, you know, what. What light do you want your family to bring into the world or the things that, you know, you've. You realized or people had seen and sort of how, I guess, again, who is Hirsch? Your son? [01:31:19] Speaker G: Well, definitely something that we constantly. I don't think this is so unique. We're stressing in our house was der Geretz before anything else. And we often would say to the kids from when they were little, when they would go to school, you know, do the best you can. But the most important thing is that you must be respectful to your teachers and to your peers, and that everything else we could handle. You come home with a bad grade, that's fine. You come home and you forgot to bring your homework home with you, that's fine. But that it was absolutely unacceptable to ever get a phone call that any of our kids were not showing Der Geretz. And whenever we would go to parent teacher meetings, it always made us feel okay when they would say, oh, for Hirsch he could definitely be trying harder because he's, he's bright, and so he could have always been doing better, but they would always say, and he's very funny, but he's not a clown and he's never disrespectful. He always shows Derrickherz and our girls as well. And that made everything all right. The other step was forgiven because there was Derek. So I think that that's like one of the Midot, one of the values that we very much stressed always in our house. [01:32:44] Speaker F: I think the other one that I'd add is it wasn't even so much a deliberate one that we planned before having kids or ever planned, but is just making Yiddishkay meaningful for our kids and for the family, which is to say, did we talk periodically about Torah and halacha and so on? Yes. But really, I just think that we wanted our kids to see meaning in everything we were doing, going to shoal and struggling with Kashrut and other things as we traveled. [01:33:18] Speaker G: Just to make it. [01:33:19] Speaker F: Meaningful, which doesn't necessarily mean fun, but meaningful that they would get something, see value in our lifestyle. [01:33:28] Speaker G: And we said, before we made aliyah, before we moved to Israel, there was so much Kavanaugh, there was so much intention in leading the lifestyle that we led. We made aliyah from Richmond, Virginia, which was a beautiful, but very tiny community, religious community. And so everything was very much with intention. Hirsch, when he was in kindergarten, was the only jewish boy in his class. Actually, at the JCC preschool, it just worked out that way. There was another class that was also his same age, but in his particular class, he was the only jewish boy. And there became an issue where it wasn't a religious, a traditionally observant preschool. And all the birthday parties were always thrown on Saturdays, on Shabbat. And we didn't live in a place where it was walkable. And so that first year, and I didn't feel comfortable saying to these people, Hirsch can't come if you do this on Saturday, because those people all went to church on Sunday. So it was, you know, Sundays were not a good day for them to have their parties. And so for that whole first year, I didn't want people to feel bad, so I would just RSVP. Unfortunately, he can't come. And then by the end of that year, at some point, somebody told someone and, like, the whole class sort of came to me to apologize, that they didn't realize that that was why Hirsch didn't come to any of these birthday parties. And the following year, they did make it work. And they did switch parties to Sunday afternoons so that Hirsch could come. But all of those lessons taught our kids that what we were doing was important and they didn't feel resentful. Hirsch wasn't resentful. He just noticed that he didn't go to these parties. But when we meet Aliyah, it was something that I actually, in many ways, I missed, that there was an intentionality behind being jewish that ended up sort of receding a bit due to the ease of being jewish here. [01:35:40] Speaker H: So, speaking about Kavana, that's really something that right now, it's probably takes on a whole new level. And you speak a lot about Tehillim and how spirituality and Tzvila and Tehillim has been part of your life. But how has that really shaped over the past few months in particular? [01:35:59] Speaker G: Well, I'm very thankful that we have our faith and that we have this rich heritage to draw on during this excruciating time, during this difficult time. You're right, Karen, that Tehillan speak very loudly to me. And in fact, this is. I was not paid to make this plug, but I did get a brand new purple Corin Tehillim book that I've been using from my dear friend Karen and some other friends from Chicago that was left by my front door. So I took my old book that was not from Corin Publishing. You should know my old t hillimanous, which has been a little bit retired, and now I use my purple Corinth every day. I find it fascinating to read. I have to admit that a lot of the tehillim I read in English because my Hebrew is just not very good and my Havana is not very good. So even if I can read it, I don't understand what I'm reading. And in this particular edition that Karen gave me, first there's an explanation of what the Tehillim is going to be talking about, and then underneath, it's really explaining insights into the actual tehillim that you just read. And I do feel that it's been really a source. When I'm having like, super anxiety or super angst during the day, I can just take it out. And I sometimes I go to, like, 126 to talk about captives being returned to Zion and how we'll be so happy and we'll be like dreamers. That's like an easy one, one that we read on Shabbat, but I actually read it almost every day, or 121 or 23 like, ones that we always go back to. I will say that Haf Gimel that 23, you know, which talks about this famous line that I learned once with Rabbi Harold Kushner, who's the famous Zichman Olivracha that died this past year, who wrote, when bad things happen to good people. And he wrote it in the wake of losing his only son to a horrible disease. And I was in a class with him once, and someone asked him, what, al Regalekhat is your Torah? And he said, without hesitating, kosi revai. And it just, you know, took my breath away, that he could say, my cup overflows. And I. And I have said that in many interviews since October 7, that I feel I've led and continue to lead a life with goodness overflowing at this moment. My cousin, my cup is overflowing with tears, but I have faith and belief that my cup will overflow again with goodness and that Hirsch will come back. And so those are things that have been really strengthening to me during this time. [01:39:13] Speaker F: Karen, I'll take a stab at the same question, which is, I've said a lot in this period, that it feels, in some ways, and it's so important to say, because we're not there. But like an inut, when the time between somebody's death and their burial, when jews are exempt from performing positive commandments, and there are a few reasons why they're exempt, one is the person who just passed away can no longer perform its vote. So their close loved ones, sort of in solidarity, don't. A second idea is that the journey of prepping the body and the soul to go from this world to the world to come is so all encompassing that there's no time for mitzvot. And then there's just the distraction. People's minds aren't there when they've just lost a loved one. And I believe Hirsch is alive and coming home. So this is not an Inuit, but I experience some of those same feelings and emotions and realities, and as such, I find that mitzvot are hard. I've said many times that maybe we should be exempt when you're in a period of captivity, a relative in captivity, in this unknown, that maybe we should be exempt from mitzvah, but we're not. And so some of what speaks to me is the things that acknowledge the challenges of doing these mitzvahs. Right? So Rachel's always liked that one sentence before the amidah, before the shmonazre adashemental. Before we go into the amida, we're saying to Hashem, open my lips so that I can sing your praises, acknowledging that I need your help so that I can praise you. And I feel like that's so much of everything that we do nowadays. And the second piece is all of the tehileem and all of our liturgy that's about just calling out to hashem to help us. So an artist who we don't know bumped into me on the street on Friday and said, I can't believe I'm seeing you. I'm here from Atlanta, and I created a piece of art for you. And it was a beautiful piece of art that said. And so it made me think about that. And I went back to Tehillam 20 and read the whole thing over and even backed up a pasuk from the end where it says, hema karovna fallow vanu kamneu venito dad. Like, it describes Hirsh's story and what we're going through. Like, they slumped over, they fell over, and we rose to the occasion to come and help. That's our story now. And then it goes on to the last sentence of the Shem Hashiya, God save, answer our cry, hamelachi anenubium karenum. And so it's challenging for me to be doing this vote now for the reasons that I mentioned. And so the parts that speak to me are the ones that acknowledge those challenges of God help us, do what we can do to help you and to praise you and to have you do what you do. Those are all the pieces that are really powerful for me in this period. [01:42:19] Speaker B: So you talked a little bit about intentionality, but also, John, you just mentioned one example of sort of an unexpected encounter. Have you had any other unexpected encounters, people you've met, experiences over the past few months that were, I guess, unexpected or surprising that have come out of this horrific situation you've been in so endlessly? [01:42:42] Speaker F: They happen all day, every day. And I'm actually going to let Rachel mostly talk about it. But I do want to mention a couple, which is, I've said that if there's one good thing in the last 136 days for us, it's that we've gone from seeing the worst in humanity to seeing the best in humanity. And it's manifested by the outpouring of support and love and strength that we get from so many people literally all day, every day, both virtually and in person. And I'll mention two examples from recently, which is, among other activities, we each somewhat together and sometimes separately, have been going into the ultra orthodox, the Haredi world for strength and for brachot, blessings and a few weeks ago, I was in Bnet Brak one night, and on the same night I had two really interesting experiences. I was with one gadot, who asked everybody to leave the room. So it was just the two of us sitting. And he's the one who acknowledged what I mentioned earlier in the conversation. He said to me, I'll bet people are saying stupid things to you nowadays. I said, they are. And he said, obviously, nobody means it. They just don't know what to do. And they're awkward. And he just went right there, which I thought was interesting. Then from meeting him, I went to meet with Rav Silberstein, who was in the midst of giving a shior a class in the hospital. And I walked into the room in the middle of his shior, a full room of mostly haredi men. And one of his handlers went over to him and said quietly that the father of a hostage just came into the room. And he, mid sentence, closed his Gemara, hit the table, and he said in Hebrew, friends, we must stop the class now. This is a matter of Pikach Nefesh, a matter of saving a life. We are going to start to recite Tehillim. And this is a room full of people who I don't normally mix with. And he went on to lead the room in the most tearful, emotional, intentional recitation of T Hilim. And the whole room just got into it and embraced the moment and came over afterwards and physically embraced me. And I thought, I never mixed with this community. But they are doing what it is that they can do during this difficult time for us as a family, for the whole country. And we have so many moments of that kind of unity and beauty all day, every day, that are really inspiring. [01:45:13] Speaker G: And so what I was going to share was that people are often saying to us in different interviews, they'll say, oh, you've met with these presidents, or you've met with these prime ministers, or you met with the pope, or you met with this famous person who's given you the most encouragement. And honestly, it is not any of those people, and it is who John is talking about. I was thinking, for me, I've spoken now in Ramat Bechemish a couple of times, and those evenings with just women that are haredi women who are on the surface, they might look at me and think like, oh, we don't seem the same. Or I might look at them and think that. And we are exactly the same. And they have been so strengthening to me, so supportive. In fact, after I spoke in Ramapeh chemist the first time I spoke in Gimel and Dalit, I was going to then be speaking in Aleph, but it wasn't until the following week. And then I started to have a very bad week. Just a lot of stuff was going on. I mean, every single day is torture, as you can imagine. And then there's days that are extra torture because there's things that are going on that are extra torturous. And I kept saying, I can't wait to go back to Ramadechemish. Like I needed a dose of these powerful, mighty women to lift me up again. And I was counting, literally counting the days. And then on that day, I was counting the hours until I got to go there. And I was so thankful to be back in that room with these mighty women of faith and of strength. And also, I'll do a shout out to the christian community that has been so unbelievably good to us. And there are groups of christians that have come to Israel and small groups. I'm not talking about talking in front of hundreds of people. I went to a group, one Mozai Shabbat, about a month ago, and it was maybe a room of 25, 20 people. I really don't know. They were so amazing. Just regular people and sharing their own challenges and what has helped them and which Tehillim have helped them and how prayer has helped them and just sharing. One woman said to me afterwards, she stayed and she said, you know, you're going through ambiguous trauma, which is different than normal trauma, which is why when you're just walking down the road and you're hit in the back by a truck that you didn't see coming, that's normal trauma. And it knocks you on your back if it doesn't kill you. And you have to decide, how am I going to recover from this hit out of nowhere? Ambiguous trauma is the truck is still on you. We are 136 days into a truck still being on top of us. And this woman, this lovely christian woman, explained she's also in a form of ambiguous trauma because of something she's going through with her son. And she was the one who actually taught me this idea because John and I would often get into bed at night and say, well, we failed because now we made it through another day of working our butts off for 18, 20 hours and he's still not home. And she said, you cannot say that to yourself. You have to get into bed at night and say, I did everything single thing I could today to save him. You have to change the narrative. And when she did that, it was such a gift she gave to us, because now we work as hard as we possibly can. And when we get into bed, we know that we're one step closer, even if we don't know how many more steps we have to take. It's like she gave me a lesson. She gave me her Torah of forgiving yourself when the desired goal isn't met. [01:49:12] Speaker A: That night, I struggle to find the words. And I personally am very, very inspired by your john and you, Rachel, your poise. And I don't want to use the word strength, because I know, Rachel, you've spoken a few times about having strength for not feeling strong. But I'd be interested to hear, if you can put it into words, how it is you're able to go through those 1820 hours, days more even, and feel as if you're putting everything in, in a situation where all of us in Israel, all of us in the diaspora, feel hopeless, feel weak, feel as if there's nothing more that we can do. How are you able to sort of draw that strength, for lack of better words? [01:50:04] Speaker H: I'd also just like to add to that, because, Rachel, in general, I've heard from anybody that reaches out to you how you respond immediately, and that's not a given in a situation that you and John are in, to be able to respond to people. And again, without not trying to sound, I can't even think of the right word. But in return, you're giving the rest of the am Khizug without me necessarily realizing it. But how, in turn, both of you are turning around and just providing us with what everybody needs during these tragic, tragic days. [01:50:46] Speaker F: I'll say just a couple of quick things on that, which is, number one, and this is really not meant, this false modesty, but we always talk about how we're doing everything we can to save our son, which is what any other parent we know would do to save their own loved one. And it's what 133 other families are doing right now as well. Within that, one of the answers is we could every day get up and decide we're not getting out of bed today. Or Rachel sometimes has talked about her temptation to just roll up on the floor in a ball that isn't productive. And so we don't have that luxury. To do that, we need to be in Asiya in action mode at all times. A, we need to be, and b, it just helps us get through our days. But the other piece of it is what we've been talking about for the last few minutes, which is, I really feel like we aren't on this journey alone. We are part of millions of people around the world who are now on this mission with all of the hostage families. We hear it. We see it, the strength we get in Israel, outside of Israel, from Jews, from non Jews. It's like, we have to do this for Hirsh, we have to do this for ourselves, and we have to do this for the millions of people who give us strength every day, who are part of this journey. It's an obligation to keep on going, is how I look at all of it. [01:52:14] Speaker G: I agree. I mean, I think I've said before, first of all, it's not even a choice. It is literally a primal, innate, natural response of any parent. Even in the animal kingdom, if a bear thinks that you're getting too close to its cub, it goes wild. You know, I mean, that is our natural reflex when you think that your child is in danger. And we know our child is in danger. And so there's not a lot of thought that goes into how are we going to get up and do this again? It actually is like springing from the bed with not a lot of sleep and just running. Our friend Ruby Chen, who also has a child who is being held hostage, he said the problem is that we're in a marathon, but since we don't know how long, it's actually not a marathon because it's much longer than a marathon and we don't know the timing. So you have to sprint because time is of the essence. And we know that time is, is so dangerous for these hostages. So we're sprinting marathons, like ultra marathons every day to try to save these 134 souls. And I also think that there is an element of we are in trauma. But I actually, when I say we, obviously, John and I, obviously the families of the entire 134, and I dare, I dare say we, the entire family of the entire am Yisrael, not the country of Israel, but the entire am Yisrael worldwide, in the most far flung places on planet Earth. I think the entire people of the jewish people are in a trauma right now. And we all have to stand up and be trying to save and fix what happened to our people, and we all have to be strong to do that. And that is also going to require courage and bravery and risks. And those are things that we should be proud of doing as jewish people and that we should embrace because we are jewish people. And that is why what we do. [01:54:49] Speaker F: I'll just add to that, we've talked about haredim and we've talked about different segments of society, and one that we haven't mentioned, but it's the soldiers and the number of them who come up to us on the street and just come over to us for a second and, like, in their gear, just heading home after 70 days of not being home and say, we're doing this to bring home hirsh and all the others. And, like, when you hear that and you know what they're doing to try to make that happen, it's hard for us to not be doing everything we can. [01:55:29] Speaker B: So as the war does continue and in Israel, we're seeing differing opinions of how things should move forward. And I think Rachel alluded this at the beginning. How can we stop bringing home the hostages from becoming a political issue or a divisive issue? How can we keep that at the forefront, separate from all discussions of how the war should move ahead? [01:55:55] Speaker G: Well, first of all, I think it's interesting that for the first two months, I was constantly, both of us were constantly being asked in the news outside of Israel, the worldwide news about the hostage situation. And we constantly were trying to say, and this is what my message was when I was asked to speak at the UN in New York. This is a global humanitarian crisis in the micro, separate, separate from anything that is happening. And something huge is happening in Gaza with us trying to, you know, trying to diminish Hamas military capacity to replicate October 7 makes sense. What I have been saying from the get go is that if the exact same constellation of people who were originally kidnapped and held hostage, if that same demographic that, you know, baby up until 87 years old, that christian, jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist, that, you know, that cross section of humanity representing originally almost 39 countries, I said at the UN, 33, but I was corrected afterwards that they think that it was 39 countries. If all of those people had been kidnapped and taken, held hostage in Dallas, Texas, you can bet your bottom dollar, then on October 8, the entire world would have shown up to try to help them, the same way that a few years ago when those boys from Thailand who were in a soccer team ended up in that weird cave underwater, and it took weeks and weeks, but the whole world came together to help save them. So all the more so now we now have 134 people still left who represent 19 different nations, who still represent those five different religions and who now range in age. As we know, the youngest turned one a couple of weeks ago in January, and the oldest is now 86 because the 87 year old was released in the first group of people that were released at the end of November. What I think is ironic is that everyone was saying to me in Israel, everyone from every level down was saying, you need to convince the world this is not a political issue. This is a global humanitarian crisis. And then all of the sudden, in the last few weeks, people within Israel are trying to take this and create a political issue out of it, which I find ironic since they were sending me to go and fight that very notion. And I think that trying to divide anyone within the jewish world, trying to divide and say, these 134 people are not part of am Yisrael, I think it's actually the most cruel, sickening, and perverse thing you could possibly say to me about me, that I'm not part of this nation, that I'm not part of the jewish people, that my son is not part of this and is not valued. It's not recognizable to me. I grew up in a home that said, jews value life. I grew up in a day school with Karen that taught us that one of the rules when you come into this land is you do not do Molech. You don't sacrifice children and people. I also remember learning, and I said this to John two weeks ago, that I suddenly had this epiphany. And I said, you know, I'm thinking of Ishmael. I'm thinking of Ishmael. When Ishmael and Hagar were cast out into the desert, and Ishmael starts to die because he runs out of water, and he cries out to Goddesse. He cries out to Hashem. And Hashem says, I'm going to save him. And Rashi the maforshim say, what happened in that moment? Rashi says that the Malheim Hamlachim, the ministering angels, came to God and said, what? Are you kidding? You're gonna save him. He's gonna be the progenitor, the father of Amalek and Haman and all the people who are gonna hurt Israel hurt your people in the future, he's going to be the father. If you save him, you are actually going to be hurting in the future, your people. And Hashem says, I am a God of Rahamim, and I'm saving him. And I think to myself, if God could save Ishmael, kal the chomer, how can we not save our own people, our own babies, our own children, our own grandfathers, our own brothers, our own spouses who are still there, not to mention the 19 young women who are still there, who are all presumed pregnant by now you're not going to save them. [02:01:11] Speaker E: Who are we? [02:01:11] Speaker G: If we don't do that, I won't recognize who we are. And so to politicize this, I think, is the most cruel, manipulative thing that anyone across any spectrum in our community or outside of the community could possibly do. [02:01:27] Speaker H: So based on that which is so unbelievably powerful and strong, what do you need from us, from am Yisrael, that here we are at a day 136? Like, what can we do to help you? [02:01:44] Speaker F: So, people ask that question, and we always say, oh, it would be so great if we had the answer right. But this is a complex problem. It's not a problem that can necessarily be solved by contacts or a network or money. [02:02:00] Speaker G: But there are many things you can do. [02:02:02] Speaker F: There are. And those things include, number one, prayer helps. If that's your thing, pray, send support. That all matters. Number two, it's so important that the story not fall off the radar, certainly not here in Israel, which is less of a risk. But on a global level, news cycles move on and congressional cycles move on, and we must keep these stories of 134 individuals. It's not a number. It's everyone is Olam Loo o, a full world in and of himself or herself. We must keep telling these stories. You could follow, bring her home. Spread the story. You could follow. Bring them home now and spread the stories, but keep the stories alive. You can call the United States administration and tell them that you're not okay with 134 hostages being held, of whom eight of them are Americans, of which six are believed to still be alive. They need to know that they must keep working until all of them come home. And increasingly, what we're saying is, do the same thing for the cabinet here in Israel. Of course, they're working on the hostage issue. We need them working on it more urgently, bringing them home today. And it must be elevated to the degree of urgency, because the one thing or one of the things that the hostages do not have is time. Time is of the essence, and we need to be working on that level of urgency. [02:03:28] Speaker G: And I would say just the last thing on that topic is that John always says the price that we will pay will be high. We know that. We all know that. That's the way it rolls here. But the price that we as a people, as a nation, as the jewish people worldwide, that we will pay if we do not bring these hostages home alive, will be so much higher because we will actually lose. It will be the worst loss when we are no longer who we claim to be or when we are no longer who we claim to have the values that we have always said that we have had, we won't be able to say that anymore if we forsake these people. And I do think that part of being Jewish is you do irrational things we have, that we do that may well, why are we doing shatnis? We don't know. We just do it. Like, there are things that are bananas that we do. That's what we do. We're jews. We do things that are crazy. And maybe things. Part of it is we don't do things that are logical. We don't do things that are in the box. We say, you know what? That person's over there. We're going to save them. And we do a lot of different things that just seem like they don't make sense. And that is something we should embrace, and that is something we should be proud of. And that is something that makes us chosen, and that is what makes us holy. [02:05:01] Speaker B: Rachel and John, thank you so much for sharing your words with us, sharing your Torah with us, and sharing your time with us. Most importantly, we'd really appreciate it. And I think what we can say is, obviously, is that we hope that by the time this episode is released, if not before then, Hirsch comes home together with all the other hostages. And. And please, God, that should be very soon. [02:05:28] Speaker G: Thank you so much. [02:05:30] Speaker H: Love you guys. [02:05:31] Speaker G: Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. [02:05:33] Speaker H: Thinking of you every day. [02:05:35] Speaker A: That's all for this week's Coren podcast. We'll be back in two weeks time with another Coren podcast, al Regalachat. Until then, goodbye.