[00:00:00] Speaker A: The Rebbe and Rav kook, I think, are very similar in the sense that they are two orthodox jewish movements that are Gula focused, that there is a story happening with jewish history. There is a beginning, a middle, and an end. They both assume we are towards the end, and there are specific things that we have to do to help Ami Yisrael help the world get to that end. Mark, get to Gula.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Corin podcast. Thank you so much for joining us again, and if it's your first time, welcome, welcome. We are happy to have you here. We have another wonderful episode lined up for you this week we are being joined by Rabbi Josef Bronstein, whose new book, engaging the Essence, which explores the philosophy and the Torah contribution of the Lubavitch rebbe, quickly and deservedly, has become a best seller. So we are very, very excited to speak today to Rabbi Josef Bronstein. So without further ado, let's jump in. Rabbi Bronstein, thank you for joining us.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Harry. It's an honor to be here.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: So as we do every week on the current podcast, we're going to ask you just one question. Rabbi Bronstein, please, can you teach us your whole Torah? Al Raghelacha wow.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Thank you so much for the. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Currently, in the last couple of weeks, months and years, I've been thinking a lot about Chabad Torah. So when I realized that was going to be the one question you asked me, I was thinking from a Chabad perspective, which I'm currently in the mindset of what is al Qa'altan or Kul or regalachas? And I realize that there is no better answer than the answer the Gemara itself actually gives. Hillel asked the ger. The GER asks Hillel, the convert, potential convert asked Hillel, what is the entire Torah on 1ft? And Hillel responds to Amanda Sanilach al Tavida Kavracha.
What is distressful to you, you shouldn't do to your friend, which the commentators explain is really a reformulation of the mitzvah, of loving each and every jew. And in terms of the way I view myself and the way I view my activities, my teaching, my writing, I really try to put Avas Yisrael at the center of what I'm doing.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: That's beautiful. Obviously, you know, the Gemara itself definitely gives a good answer. So I guess from a Chabad point of view, how does it differ? You yourself are not necessarily, you definitely don't present as a hasid of Chabad.
So I guess what is it about Chabad that sort of piqued your interest? And what is it specifically about the Chabad lifestyle, or the philosophy of the rebbe, or whatever it is that really lends itself to. To that being your Torah? Al raghlacha.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: So I grew up in an orthodox household. I grew up, my father was a rabbi. I got an amazing, amazing education. Elementary school, high school, yeshiva, learned in Yeshiva at Haratzyl and learned in Yu for many, many years. And I wasn't necessarily looking for another perspective on life, or an adjacent perspective on life, but I feel once I fell into Chabot Torah, what it gave me was a deeper understanding and maybe a little bit of meaning and experience and context for all the mitzvahs that I was trying to do. Anyway, let's just use an example of Talmudorah, which was perhaps the mitzvah I've been most engaged in in terms of my time, and then teaching Torah and writing Torah. So the gemara talks about how Talmitor can negat kulam. Tama Torah is a study of Torah, is a very important mitzvah. It's a very central mitzvah. And there are different formulations as to why it is such a central mitzvah once I got into the kabbat Torah. So one of the angles as to why Tama Torah is such an important mitzvah and then teaching Torah becomes such an important mitzvah, is because of the mitzvah of Avaz Yisrael. There are other jews that are out there, other people that are out there. You expand your personality to include them. You begin to view things from their perspective, you begin to care about them. It's the same way that you want to give them material benefit. You want to try to help them out, you want to try to do favors to them. So I'm not handy, I'm not good with interpersonal counsel. There are many things in terms of helping other people that I can't do. But I realized that within this perspective, Jews love Torah. Jews love different types of Torah. Jews love Chabad Torah, they love Rav Kokh, they love Gemara, they love halacha. Different types of Jews love different types of Torah. But if I could try to teach Torah, and I could learn Torah with that perspective, I am learning Torah to help out Amy Israel, to help out other Jews. That just gives so much more meaning and so much more layers and context to this activity that I was involved in, that I was involved in anyway. And that led me towards learning certain types of Torah, maybe more intensely because they were meaningful for me. And then I was able to teach them to others. And when I see people's eyes light up when I'm teaching, or when I get a WhatsApp, somebody read something that I wrote, and it was meaningful to them. That just means it's not just about me. And my personal religiosity. And my personal relationship with the kaddish miracle. The study of Torah and the teaching of Torah. Becomes a community building. It becomes a way to connect with other Jews.
[00:05:08] Speaker C: If we kind of take a step back, or took a few steps back. Five, six years ago, what do you think your Torah, Ragallah, would have been before you kind of got immersed in this world of Chabad?
[00:05:19] Speaker A: So five, six years ago, I was actually in the middle of writing this book. Ten years ago. Ten years ago. Ten years ago. Ten years ago. It's hard to put myself in that spot. Ten years ago, I was involved in, I would say, three different Torah activities. I was in the Koldel in Yeshiva University, learning Gemara. Halacha Torah. Deshma, rav chaim, Vlad. I was doing a doctorate in Bernard revel graduate school of Jewish Studies in academic Talmud. Under the tutelage of doctor Yaakov Ellman. So that is the more historical perspective on Nilmara. Where do all these things come from? What was the cultural context where the Nietzsche was? And finding original sources was fascinating for me.
I could explain why. And the third thing I was involved with was mostly the Torah of Rav K. And if you had to ask me what would have been my Torah al Raghlakas, it was fine Torah. That's meaningful for me. I was studying Torah. I wasn't teaching so much then. I was very, very involved in my own studies. And I was looking for Tama Torah as a way of connecting me personally to a kadosbaraku. And I tried different genres. I tried diverse disciplines, and all three of those disciplines fit in for me in terms of my connection with a kaddish barako. So I guess my Torah of Aga would be find the Torah that connects you the most and run with it.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: So I suppose the academic study of. Of Talmud, of Gomorrah, I mean, it is undeniably fascinating, whether it's from a religious point of view or historical point of view. It's an endless topic and is wonderful.
As someone, perhaps not an expert on these things, I see Rav Kook, who talks a lot about certainly the jewish national obligations. And he is rightly the father of religious Zionism, sort of that area of Tara. But sort of philosophically, I found sort of what I've learned of Rav kook. It is talking introspection and looking inside and building your character. Whereas Chabad, or at least like, certainly the rebbe, does look very, very broadly outwards. And, you know, obviously I'm summarizing and doing a bad job of it.
What is it in that shifted within you that helped you or encouraged you to make that switch from, again, I guess, being a Hasid of Rav kook to being a Hasid of Chabad, minus the beard and the hat? But what was it, a life change? Was there an event? Or literally, was it just you picked up a book one day and it spoke to you on a spiritual level that sort of led you down a rabbit hole into essentially becoming an expert in Chabad philosophy?
[00:08:02] Speaker A: So it's a good question, and I wonder this myself, looking backwards, what are the different steps were? I firmly believe that you were the Hashga kha practice that one thing led to another. I was planning on studying jewish philosophy in revel graduate school. I wandered into a class of doctor almonds that led me into the world of academic Talmud. They got me started thinking more historically in terms of stage after stage after stage of the development of Torah, which is something Raf cook writes about, into the endless degree that you could see the yad hashem through the development of Am Yisrael, the development of Torah and academic talent. Study was basically doing that in a more limited way within the text of ghazal, seeing generation after generation, seeing Torah develop.
I actually got to Chabad through the similarities between Chabad and Rav Kokh, that I was studying Rav Kokh, and I realized that a foundational book for Rav kook was Tanya. So I found myself some havreuses in Tanya within the context of the Yu based madrish. I wasn't looking outside. It wasn't learning. With a full blown khabar chazed. I went through a tanya twice in the yubist madrish, once with a commentary with Kavrussas, once with the commentary of Steinzalt. I guess we're here in the current office, I should mention Arv Stein Saltz. And then I started. It fascinated me. The connection, I think, was more spiritual. The ideals were very deep. It was a different way of thinking about myself. Again, on a more personal level. Tanya has one parikh about interpersonal relationships.
Most of Tanya is describing the inner psyche of the soul, its relationship with the cosmos, and its relationship with God. Other people dont feature as much in Tanya as one might think, based on leader Chabad thought. And then from Tanya. I was wondering what happened with Tanya. I knew Chabad existed. So, being me, I didnt seek out Chabad Hasidim in 770. I sought out the.
The shelf in the Yu library having to do with the Baba shrebbe. And I started reading through things, and it was fascinating to me what the rebbe did with Tanya. Obviously, there are many generations in between the altar, Ebba and Chabad. So my trajectory from Rav Kokh to the Baba terebbe was basically looking for sources from Rav kook. I found Tanya from Tanya down from Tanya down to the Labbajerabi. In terms of the shift that ravkook. I think one of the commonalities between Rav kook and the Baba cherubi is that they are both very much focused on other people. Rav Kokh thinks about Am Yisrael in terms of his history and returns Arat Israel Chabad. The Baba shrebbe already talks about Paraklam Aves, and Tanya is a central chapter about. You should always view yourself as part of some larger entity. That is, I guess, one of the technical definitions of the word bittle, which appears all throughout kabbalah literature. Thinking of yourself not as an individual person, but as part of a larger entity. And therefore there was this commonality between Rav Kokh and Chabad. But what I think, what Alex, you are hitting on a true point that the babetrabbi emphasizes a lot more. Always thinking about the other person first on a very, very individual level. There's me. I have a neighbor. So what could I do for my neighbor? Thinking of a life of service, not maybe necessarily towards amy's real as a whole, which might be somewhat of an abstraction, especially for living in Khutzars, I think here at Naret, Israel, during a war. Living for am Yisrael is something which we see. We see on a regular basis, but at least in Khutzilar might be a little bit of an abstraction, but in the bamboo cherebi, maybe because he was in Khatzar, maybe because of the sources he was working from. It's very, very much my surroundings. I have neighbors. I have friends. I know people. I interact with the security guard at Shiva University. How could I elevate those relationships? How could I center those relationships and put them ahead of my own personal needs? What made that shift within me? Number one, I just liked the sources. The sources spoke to me. It was a long textual history. I always loved sources. The Baba Shirabi was a bibliophile. Everything is footnoted like crazy.
And number two, maybe just a little bit of growing up, I got married, started a family. You start having children, and you start seeing how life is more than just about you. You're living within a web of relationships. You need aunts and uncles, you need siblings, you need friends.
It's hard to raise a family just by yourself and a nuclear family. You start realizing there are other people around than just you. And the people around you in the white race matter, you start thinking about everybody else that's out there. And Chabatura lent meaning to that, to that maturation.
[00:12:13] Speaker B: How do you sort of mesh those two approaches? If we go back to your answer to the original question of essentially an extraction of do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or have we want to view that? How do you mesh the rough cook of seeing yourself as part of a hole in the. The meta angle, whether it's the, you know, a national thing, how does that mesh with the lubavitcher ebbers? Sort of like one on one interpersonal relationship thing.
And sort of, in my head, I think it's probably quite connected, which would be sort of Rav Cook's attitude towards the general, you know, zionist outlook. Whereas the Rebbe, and I think you explore this in the book as well, like, the Rebbe's attitude towards Zionism was very, very complicated.
So was that an extraction as well of, like, the rebbe's view of interpersonal relationships? Is the one on one or the nuclear thing? Or was it something like deeper than that, more complicated than that? How do those two philosophies mesh? Or do they. Not at all. And you are in a period of your life now where you are thinking more about that interpersonal thing, whereas maybe 1015 years ago it was much more national.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: First, I would like to split the two questions. I'm not sure if Zionism is necessarily linked, but I think that both Rav Kok and the Baba Trebi see this very similarly. They might discuss the way it's done in different ways. The emphasis on Rav Koch might be much more grander and national, and the passages in Rav Kokh about making sure you help your neighbor might be more scarce than in the babetrabi. But the Baba Chebbe definitely speaks about cosmic change and changing the entire world, what he links to, what he's able to do in his talks. And this is why he was transformative for so many people and so many hasidim is that he speaks a lot about cosmic change. Chabad in general, speaks about the cosmic processes and dirbatonim and different levels of reality. And you're speaking about the world as a whole. But in the end of the day, what Tababa Shrebi taught is that it is individual acts of Hasid. It is a single mitzvah that has that transformative capability, either because each mitzvah reveals divinity in this world, and also because in the aggregate, if everybody influences their own surroundings, if everybody has positive relationships with the people around them and tries to elevate those relationships and bring divinity to the people around them, so then eventually there is going to be a cosmic change. So it's not necessarily there. If Cook is only speaking on the abstract national level or under Baba tribe, he's only speaking about the interpersonal level. Ramjabi, he addresses this directly in sicho sometimes. I remember one in particular where he spoke about the need to change the entire world and create the de rebuttal home for God in the world. Then he shifted and said, you might be thinking as an individual person living on an individual block, an individual street with a family. What role do I have in this cosmic process? And he started developing the Makaros. How from each individual action is so important in this, in this cosmic movement?
[00:15:20] Speaker C: Let's just dig a little deeper in terms of the rabbi. As we talked a lot about comparing with rav Cook, in terms of that first engagement you had with the Rebbe's Torah. And I guess, did you start with sort of a bigger picture of Chabad Torah, as. I mean, obviously, you talked about Tanya, but often we kind of forget the generations in between. Was that a part of your journey, kind of through the Torah of Chabad? Or was it from Tanya Rovco, the rebbe?
[00:15:47] Speaker A: So this is to my chagrin. Unfortunately, I did not go through the entire intellectual history at this point in my life. I was not getting paid to learn this. I was learning this somewhat on the side in my own, and I was doing it for personal interest. I was just fascinated by Tanya, and I was fascinated by the lullabish rabbi was doing. So I tried to read as much from the altar rabbi as possible, but I did not systematically go through the Midlare rebbe and the salamak tzedek and the Maharashtra and the Rashab and the Frida g Rebbe. What I did was look back for notes. So the Baba Sharabi cites a lot of mamarim. He cites a lot. He's constantly working from the earlier rebbes. So I sort of looked up things backwards. It does not give me a systematic knowledge of Chabad as a whole. And I think this is reflected in the book that I often go from the altar rebbe to the L'ababit rabbi. I think tracing the entire intellectual Yeshiri Chabad would be a fascinating project. It's not necessarily something that I am personally equipped to do, but this is one of the reasons why I wanted to bring internal Chabat Hamidi Chachachim into the picture when I was writing this book, because I realized there was a lacuna in my own personal knowledge.
[00:16:53] Speaker C: And just in terms of looking at the Rebbe, I guess there's two questions. We'll start with one. Get to the other one a second. But the perspective on from within the jewish world, from the why, you unorthodox world, how do you see the place of the Rebbe as kind of a jewish philosopher, as a thinker? Do you think that sometimes it gets dismissed as well? That's hasidus.
Do you think people are missing a piece there of the Rebbe's philosophy?
[00:17:23] Speaker A: So partially, yes. I mean, I grew up within the modern orthodox world, within the Yeshiva university community, and I did not necessarily think, and this was to my loss of Rebbe as a great jewish thinker, as a great God ob Israel. In terms of Torah. I knew of him as a tremendous leader, as a leader of a movement, as somebody that was transformed american jewry. But I was not exposed to the Torah of the rebbe. And I assume many of my peers and many of my students and many of my teachers were also not exposed to the rebbe as necessarily as a Tam al Chacham innovator within jewish philosophy after having gone, spent time going through the material, I do think that Baba Cherebi deserves a. Deserves space in that great pantheon of jewish thinkers that laid out a very, very intellectually rigorous and source based jewish philosophy for jews in the modern world. Similar to Rafk and similar to Afsalveitchik. I think the Babish rabbi definitely deserves a place on that plate.
[00:18:22] Speaker C: And how do you think, or what are your hopes? I guess, and we'll start getting into a little bit in terms of the book Alex mentioned at the beginning that you've now written and published, what are you kind of hoping that people will see from the book that might kind of change that perception of the rabbi, the modern orthodox world? Why was it important for you, I guess, as someone from the modern orthodox world, to write this book, to try and change that perception.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: So I wasn't actively trying. Was not actively trying to change your perception. I taught classes in Yu on individual thinkers, on Ravi. I thought of Rav Kokh eventually, and the thought of the babetrabi. And I introduced my classes with the following goal, so to speak, that set. There are three goals for learning an individual modern thinker of salve, baba Shrebiu, of some other thinkers. Whatever it is. Number one is that it's Torah. Talma Torah, your micaim mitzvah. Talma torah. If you learn Asicha from the Baba trebi, that's number one. Number two is that it helps you understand another community. And this is perhaps where we're bringing Akhtar Sam Yisrael comes in that if you are mystified by why the dati Lumi community acts or thinks in certain ways what their foundational assumptions are, or if you're mystified by Chabad and you just get turned off by them, then you realize they're coming from a very well source based philosophy, and everything they're doing could be traced back to a line in the Zohar, a line of the Ramba. If interpreted along a certain trajectory, it helps you understand other, other adjacent communities. That could be a second goal, and a third goal is maybe the Torah.
Maybe the Torah will resonate, maybe it'll be meaningful, maybe not all of it. Maybe some of it. Even when I wrote this book, some chapters I think have impacted my daily life, and some chapters still remain foreign to me in terms of the actual content. I hope the reader isn't able to discern which chapters are which, but I think that's just the nature of somebody coming from the outside. You don't have to buy everything hook, line and sinker. Maybe some people do, but you don't have to. But a lot of the Torah could still be very meaningful. So, in terms of my goals of writing the book, I think it was. Those are the three goals. Number one is Tama Torah. This is an area of Torah that many jews are not exposed to. They wouldn't necessarily have a way in. This is an access point for a part of Torah that otherwise may not have been unaccessible to a certain percentage of the jewish population. Number two is that it helped people understand why Chabad does what it does. And number three is that maybe a certain chapter will be meaningful to somebody. Maybe to somebody will be having a bad day, and they read about Simcha, and they could integrate some of those ideas into their life. Even though the book is not really a practical book. It's not a how to book. My friend Robbie Levi Schmatzkin wrote a fantastic book about letters for life, about emotional well being. In the thought of the Baba Shrebi, it's much more directive. These are the letters the Baba Shrebbi sent to people who had certain life issues. This book is more of the abstract philosophy, but who knows? Maybe somebody will read it and they'll get uplifted.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: I think we've sort of hinted at it a couple of times already in our conversation, but the book was a long time in production, like with a lot of books that the author spends years and years researching and writing and teaching, and then before they commit it to paper and send it to us and we go through the story process in particular, went through a very long editorial process which involved.
It involved, like Chabad HQ, inverted commas that this you not a Chabad Hasid. You know, you're not somebody who has sat and learned in 770 and gone out on Schlichus and done all of that, but somebody who has a real deep appreciation for the Rebbe Torah, that, you know, the people within the Chabad community sort of gave their seal of approval, I suppose, for what you've written. What are some of the things, you know, you talked about how some chaps in the book have given you sort of real practical, you know, boost in terms of your understanding or your practice of different things, and others maybe not. And we won't go into asking you to list which ones are the practical ones, which ones? Which ones are the ones that you're less keen about. But what can a reader expect when they open the book? Somebody who maybe has a passing interest in Lubavitch or somebody whose encounter with Chabad Tenau has been. They provided them with kosher meals in some far flung place, somebody who's not so familiar with the Rebbe or with Chabad or with Tanya even. What can they expect within the pages of the book that might give them that sort of real, like, boost that you're talking about in certain areas? As you say, it's not like Levy Schmotkin's book about really directing people in terms of things, but by looking at the Rebbe's approach to different areas, whether it's in jewish philosophy or just in life in general. There's a chapter in the Rebbe's approach to. To science and halacha. Correct? So what can a person expect? And when they open the pages, what would they find there?
[00:23:26] Speaker A: So the general structure of the book is that what I tried to do was identify the major themes in the Babaj Rabbi's taught and to organize them, or organize chapters around these themes. So I think the reason why this book was necessary is because the Babitravi spoke around the year. He spoke on the parshios, he spoke on the chagim, he spoke on special days in the Chabad calendar. And so he had uncertain themes. Let's say the theme of Vishkaka prates hundreds, if not thousands, thousands of times. But you would have to go through each one in order to understand the. Gather together the sources of when he spoke about it. So what I tried to do is to gather lists of sources, a long, long list of sources. Some of this has already been done by Chabad and different areas, and some less so, and then try to find the.
The foundational principles, the conceptual principles of the Baba Sharavis, and then put that in some context. So each chapter will begin with what is said about this topic in Chazal, what is said about this topic in the Ramban. What is said about this topic, maybe in the Ramban? What does early hasidos have to say about this? And then what did the Baba shabi say? So that way, you are sort of contextualizing the Baba Sharabi's thoughts within a little bit of the sketch of jewish intellectual history. So you're able to identify better what was his chiddush, what was his innovation. And what I try to do in the sections of the chapters, which is the bulk of the chapters about the Torah of the Rabbi himself, is to cross reference a ton. So what you could see, the way he thought about hashkacha pratis is exactly the same way he thought about the need for shlichos, which is exactly the same way he thought about women's issues. So that way you could see there was a consistent line of reasoning, which makes the Baba Shirabi a systematic thinker, and not necessarily somebody who just necessarily inspired people or based on charisma alone.
[00:25:12] Speaker C: Well, we touched on a little bit before in terms of kind of the interaction between events and your personal growth and life. While writing this book, while writing the book, while books being worked on, you made alia.
And also in the book you talk about, there's a chapter about the rabbis kind of understanding or reflections or philosophy of Zionism. How did that all fit together? How was that experience at the impact that shaped the way you thought about it, approached it?
[00:25:39] Speaker A: You're asking me personally? Not really, to be honest, I don't think it personally impacted my views greatly. I think one of the things that I gained from academic talmudic studies and the whole going through a process of writing through a dissertation and then getting that published as a book. And what Professor Ellman drilled into me is that you have to write objectively. Not necessarily. Are you going to love everything you're writing? You don't have to identify with everything you're writing, but you could still do a decent as possible job in terms of objectively gathering the sources and organizing it in any proper fashion. So I guess that's. I don't know if it's a skill or it's a knee jerk reaction for me to be able to disassociate my own personal feelings from the text in front of me, at least at certain stages, I think served me well for certain chapters. Look, the Babajerabi was a great lover of Eric Israel. He helped out the state of Israel. Much as possible are his views of the significance of the state and the significance of the return of the jewish people to Eret Israel, completely identical with mine and the ones and the ideals that my wife and I want to instill within our children. Not 100%, but hopefully it didn't impact the actual content of the chapter.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: Can you tell us a little bit more, maybe as a way of perhaps giving our listeners a little of a taste of the book in terms of the rabbi and Zionism, how do you explore that in the book?
What was, from your perspective, would you say, is his understanding or philosophy of it?
[00:27:01] Speaker A: So, it depends. What do you mean by Zionism? So this is. This is where everything is complicated. So, as a background, the bhava charabi often took a very unique, idiosyncratic approach, approach to topics which are entirely based on his understanding of the previous sources, Chabad Torah, and then classic Torah sources. So, in terms of his view of Zionism, you have to understand his view of Eric Yisrael versus. Versus Chotzaretz and gullahs and Gula. So Abhambish rabbi held on to two thoughts simultaneously. Number one is that Arat, Israel is a special place. It's where am Yisrael is supposed to be. It is under the ownership and sovereignty of the ownership, let's say, of am Yisrael. And it is a special place where this morashka, which Hashem loves, where every jew is supposed to be. On the other hand, Chabad, from Tania down, has a very universalistic and global perspective in the sense that God is everything. God permeates every aspect of his world. God can be manifest to everything in this world. And therefore, no matter where you are, even if you're stuck in some seemingly godforsaken place in eastern Europe, if you look at the world properly, you will see God shining through the local river, the local tree, the local mill, and you could reveal and consciously interact with the divinity that exists there. So those two thoughts are in a little bit of tension, because if you read Tanakh, if you read Rav Kokhe, the only way for Jews to actually fully encounter divinity is if by Jews being back in Aryat, Israel, that is the God's home, that is the place where Navua is possible, prophecy is possible, the highest level of connection as possible. And Chabat doesn't deny that. The Baba shrebi didn't deny that. But the Baba shrebbi would argue that while Jews were in Khatsaritz and in his day, he has a letter where he says, the majority of Jews have been in Khatsaritz for 1900 years. And we're not just here because of our sins. We're here because of a mission God wants us to accomplish. In Chatzaretz, part of their mission is revealing the divinity of the local place, of the literally inanimate stone, sticks and stones, and the people and the culture where people happen to live. And the Baba shrek saw the fact that non jewish society was opening up. Jews could be more influential in non jewish society in the western world, and the fact that Jews were spread to all four corners of the world in the 20th, 20th century, South Africa, Argentina, Australia, places where Jews hadn't necessarily been in the past. All these things indicate the Jews have a local mission in their local place to reveal the divinity that's there. So that is going to be in tension with the completely zionistic view that once they have the opportunity, all Jews, Shamiq Aliyah. So that is the theoretical frame of the chapter. And then we get into the rabbi specific views about the state of Israel and Zionism and things of that sort. But I think that without that theoretical frame, you can't necessarily understand the way he's tiptoeing the line or creating his own line between classic Zionism and classic rejection of Zionism.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: On the topic of the Rebbe and Israel and the Rebbe in Zionism, as a religious Zionist, how do you approach the Rebbe's ideas on Kibbutz Galileo, of the Jews coming back to Israel as something that he didn't see as an ideal, perhaps didn't even see as a mitzvah to come and live here. And when we think of Chabad, we think, especially today, you know, you think of Chabad and you think about talking about Moshiach, and it's all about bringing Moshiach. And we'll leave all sorts of jokes about the Rebbe and Moshiach to the side.
But this idea, as religious, is seeing the return to Israel as part of the at Khal Tug'u'ullah, the beginning of the redemption. That is something that perhaps did not come up in the Rebbe's philosophy, the age in which we find ourselves where we're able to come and live in Israel. And as religious islands people, we see making aliyah as part of that process, and the Rebbe did not. So how do you approach that? I think it's what makes the book so interesting and what makes the book so successful is that you're not writing as a Chabadnik. You're writing as someone with an appreciation for the Rebbe, as a Torah giant and his contributions to the world of Torah and the world of philosophy. So more than just writing objectively, because it's not the same thing as an academic philosopher writing academic philosophy.
You live and you breathe Torah and you live and you breathe Judaism. And there is this one aspect that is clearly quite important to you. I don't want to put ideologies in your mouth, but clearly quite important to you to make aliyah and raise your family here and be in Israel. It's something that just was not. It wasn't necessarily important to the Rebbe. I don't know. I mean, you would. You would know better than I would. So how. How do you, as someone, as a religious zionist, view that aspect?
Because I, again, this is perhaps my failing. I find it difficult to be objective on certain topics because Judaism isn't just. It's not just a philosophy. We're not talking, you know, you know, insert whatever philosophical school here.
Judaism and Torah is something more. So how do you.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Right. I'm not objective about Torah. I tried to be objective when I was writing down Torah in the book. I definitely have my own thoughts about this, and my thoughts were definitely influenced by this community in which I grew up and the fact that I studied in Karambayavna and Ghosh and Minmar Kazarav and I learned Rav Kook when I was here a little bit over 20 years ago. Now, I would say as follows that, number one, just for the record, the Baba Sharabi was not against Aliyah. I think a better way of saying it was that he was against. He was pro Judaism. Khatzar.
If somebody didn't have a communal role and somebody was not necessarily active in their community.
Pushka Shav. If everything else was equal and you could equally as active maybe in Arat Israel, or even more inactive in Arat Israel, he would tell people to make aliyah. There's a letter he sent to somebody that said that somebody from Minnesota, I think, who wanted to make aliyah. And the rabbi told him, no, you're not. He wasn't the rabbi of the community, but he was an active for a member of the community, an upstanding member, and he was a good role model for the teenagers. So maybe you shouldn't make aliyah. But then they ended a letter. It was like, but if you are unhappy in Khatsarit and your Neshamah wants to be an arist Israel, you have no mitzvah to be unhappy. And it wasn't like he was anti making aliyah. Aliyah was a mitzvah, was a mitzvah. Chuvis mitzvah. He doesn't necessarily go like the Ramban. Like, if you do all the way, there's an obligatory mitzvah on everybody to make aliyah. He saw it as a positive religious value, as long as it didn't contradict other positive religious values. Is that where I currently am? I'm not sure. I don't think so, but I don't think that impacts the rebbe's own view. One other point before I get. I guess. I guess to. The real answer to my real response is that the Rebbe and Rav kook, I think, are very similar in the sense that they are there. Two orthodox jewish movements that are Gula focused, that there is a story happening with jewish history. There is a beginning, a middle, and an end. They both assume we are towards the end, and there are specific things that we have to do to help am Yisrael, help the world get to that end. Mark, get to Gula. For Afkok, it's much more focused on what's happening in the land. And for the babetrabi, he had a different set of sources he was working with, and therefore, it's much more focused on spiritual work that is happening, that is happening all over the world. But the goal is the same. And I think for me at least, it was an easy shift to make because as opposed to, let's say, a different community, where Gula and mashiach are not necessarily topics that are often, often discussed. And maybe the end of advarator Torah shall have more ya'rat shemayyah. We shouldn't speak lashonara and then Sheikh shaka.
But it's not something that is on top of the consciousness of, let's say, the kids in educational system, things of that sort. I think the Tatilumi community and at least the ones that are more connected to Ravkok and Chabad are the two movements that are very Gula focused, and they take slightly different paths. Obviously, Torah and mitzvahs are a major part of both of them. Take slightly different paths in terms of what the flavor of Bodhis hashem should be in the 21st century in order to bring us to the finish line. Am I personally more on the ravkook side in terms of my understanding of the totality of Torah, whatever that means? When I'm comparing myself to rav kook and the bat rebbe, which is nothing. My read of the sources, which I'm totally biased based on my upbringing, is more in the Rav kook world. I think the simple read of Tanakh is that Amisar returning to Eirat, Israel, rebuilding a society here, is a major, if not the major part, the major part of the gula. The Baba shurabi thought that as well. But he, based on other sources he had, and based on other sources that Rav Koki emphasizes, he thought there was supposed to be some type of global spiritual chuva movement prior to that, necessarily being fully engaged. In the end of the day, am I happy that the Baba Sharabi took the approach that he did? I think I'm totally happy, because if you think about. Think about Achtos Yisrael. I think about what Chabad did, what Chabad did and does throughout the world. The majority of Jews, when the bomb Shabbat was alive, were in Khatsaris. Even today, I don't know what the current demographic parts are, but probably the majority of Jews are in Kutzarits. How many movements, how many people, how many communities care for those Jews and Chatzalariates, particularly those Jews, and are necessarily as affiliated and necessarily being sent to a modern orthodox day school, yeshiva diversity, or yeshiva day school and BMG and liquid at the end, the Rebbe's perspective on G'ula and the Rebbe's perspective on Avas Yisrael, which. Which come together, they have done such an amazing thing for the jewish world. So the rebbe would have sent all of his colossidim to Israel. Let's assume a parallel universe. The Rebbe read the Makaros lake of Cook and sent all those colossidim to Israel, what would have happened to all those Jews and Kutzaritz? I think I'm not in the business of, like, looking back and seeing in a very specific way, seeing Ashkachash Hashem in the way different gdolin functioned. But I think if you take a step back and you see, you had several gadolin pushing aliyah, and you had the Baba cherebi pushing. Just caring for Jews and Khachar. As for their material and spiritual well being, I think that spread has done tremendous good for Amy. Israel as a whole.
[00:36:57] Speaker C: What do you think the modern orthodox world can learn from Chabad?
[00:37:00] Speaker A: Can learn from Chabad. So there's also. I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a communal leader. I really enjoy.
[00:37:05] Speaker C: So what you say has no consequences. It's fine.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Totally great. What could the modern orthodox world from Chabad? Sorry? What could the modern orthodox world learn from Chabad? I could say personally what I learned, what I learned from kabbad, and maybe I will. I'm the prototypical modern orthodox jew in terms of my education.
I learned, number one, I would say again, in no particular order, is the idea of Bitzel. Bittel is a hard term to translate, but Bitzel simply probably means something like always seeing yourself as part of a greater whole. So when I was in, let's say, yeshiva, I was in Yeshiva haretzion. My goal is very clear. I wanted to become. I wanted to master shast. I wanted to become the biggest hamakaka I could become. I wanted to learn a ton. Did that take other people into account? People that were necessarily. Would that help out other people around me? Was I taking their needs into account? Not always on 100%, necessarily. It was a very, very me focused approach, and I thought it was a spiritual pursuit. And probably, hopefully, it was, I think, what Chabad gives you or gave me, if you learn it and you let it for me, let it marinate, let it seep in.
It wasn't a very, very, very sharp turn. It was more of a slow marination.
Is the perspective to always think about the broader circles and view yourself as part of those broader circles, which might mean a little bit more teaching, which might mean a little bit more learning toward know, might be more meaningful. Other people, even if I wouldn't necessarily. Even if I wouldn't, maybe I would be learning. I would be learning something else. It means putting other people's needs before yours in a material and spiritual way, whatever. With whatever skills God happens to give you. That's one and number two, I guess this is classidos in general. Again, I don't want to speak negatively about the modern community. I love Yu. Why? Yeshiva University is still my yeshiva. I still work there. I still teach there online, and I am so happy with the opportunity to do so. And I speak glowingly about Yu whenever and wherever I have the ability. They gave me so much. Where else could I learn Gemara from reversing academic Talmud studies from doctor Alman and learn hasidos on the side from amazing teachers? Also, there's no other place in the world we could do all those things, I think, at least with a Hebrew for each discipline. Plus, it's just some very, very nice people around, even people that are not necessarily engaged in academic Talmud and Gemara at a high level.
But Hasidim in general, I think, gives you a little bit of soul. A little bit of it centers the experiential elements a little bit more. And at certain parts of my life, that was a very important thing for me to learn about, to encounter, and to see the sources. Again, I was very source based. See the sources that justify that, that looking for the experiential, and not just for the purely, purely harmonic.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Okay, so then looking back, and perhaps this is where we'll end, looking back at your original answer of Ahava Yisrael, of, you know, Hillel's answer from the Gemara and the time of year that we're sitting in, and, you know, the expertise that you've so kindly shared, what are some practical things that the listener can do? As in, we're in a time where people are looking for, you know, what can I do practically? And you said that the book that you've written is not a practical book. It's not a self help, you know, how to live your life according to Zarab the rabba.
But just in terms of, like, coming from the world, the world's plural from which you come, what are some things that the listener can do to increase that feeling of Ahaba Yisrael, whether it's a feeling that they themselves have or it's something that they're projecting outwards into the world. What something people can do?
[00:40:42] Speaker A: Wow.
I can tell you what. Something that I've been thinking about, something that's been very helpful for me, something the laboratory spoke about a lot. I have, I think, a couple page on it in the book as part of a broader idea, but something which. A recurring theme in the Baba Sharpie's letters, I guess, to people of my ilk that tend to like to read a lot, tend to be very introverted, tend to be very, I know, caught up in their own thoughts is to simply stop ruminating and just do. Sometimes you see somebody in need and you start thinking to yourself, it will be awkward. Maybe I'm going to embarrass him. Maybe I'll embarrass myself. Maybe it's going to going to work out. And you have a million and one reasons not to make that phone call, not to send a text, not to go ahead and just do the chesed. So the banish rabbi would write letters to such people and just counsel them and just say, just do. Just do. You have to act first. If you have a good thought in your head, don't let all those ruminations are from the itzhara and you'll see the ruminations are going to cause you sadness. Doing chesed, doing mitzvahs, helping out somebody else is going to cause you simcha. So it's even beneficial for yourself. And the more you get caught, too caught up in your own thoughts. Obviously, Kabbalah is a very contemplative, meditative aspect to it as well. But the more you get too caught up in your own thoughts, to the extent that it holds you back from actually being active in the world and doing mitzvahs, which might just mean helping out a neighbor. It might just mean sending a text to a friend you haven't sent a text to in a while. It might just mean calling. Might just mean calling your grandmother more frequently, whatever it is. But just the thoughts that come in to do something good, just, just take them, do them, and you'll see. It's going to help you. You're going to feel happier afterwards. You can help out the other person. And Shalom Israel. It's going to help out everybody.
[00:42:18] Speaker B: Beautiful. I'm definitely going to go after you finish recording and call my grandmother.
I think that's a wonderful place to end. So thank you again to Rabbi Yosef Bronstein for joining us this week on the Quorum podcast.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Arje.
[00:42:32] Speaker C: That's all we've got time for for this episode of the current podcast. Thank you again to Rabbi Josef Brunstein for joining us. If you'd like to get a copy of his book, engage in the essence, it's available
[email protected]. and using promo code podcast to check out, you can get 10% off the book, as well as all other books you might be stocking up for. The I'm in the rhyme with if you'd like to reach us, you can email
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